EBAYS terrible T&C on return postage!!! Is this legal?

Astaril

Hi all, I know that sometimes Martin Lewis frequents this forum and I am really really hoping he will read this now as I think it is a scandle that needs sorting out!

Recently I ordered two items from two different sellers on Ebay. The first was a childs tea set, this arrived with a broken sugar bowl, the sugar bowl had not been damaged in transit as it had been glued back together. There was no mention of this in the description and the tea set was advertised as good condition. I complained to the seller who said I could send the tea set back to her for a refund, the return postage will cost about £6.50 she says that she does not have to pay this as she contacted Ebay for advise and they told her the p&p is my (buyers) responsibility. She even copied a full transcript of the conversation to prove that Ebay have said this. I can copy here if needed but I will have to blot out the names.

The second items was a black long sleeved top with a star trek logo on the front (yes I know... trekie but it is for a party! ) On the page there was a photo of a long sleeved top, the Title says "LONG SLEEVED SKINNY FIT T SHIRT" and the description says the same! The top I have received is a very short sleeved black T Shirt. This will cost me about £2.50 in postage to return back to them, the seller says as per ebays terms and conditions the buyer must pay the return postage.

So even though I ordered two things in good faith, reading the description carefully, checking the feedback of the buyers etc, paying promptly I have now ended up with two useless items, a load of hassle and will be out of pocket £9. How can Ebay allow this to happen?

Just to confirm that this is genuinely in there terms and conditions please read them in the following link...

I quote...
"If you're given a refund, you'll usually receive it through same payment method that you used to pay for the item. If you bought an item with a payment method other than PayPal, we'll ask you to confirm receipt of the refund.
A full refund is one that covers the cost of the item and original postage. If you've received an item and want a full refund, you'll usually need to send the item back to the seller. Buyers are responsible for paying return postage unless the buyer and seller have reached a different agreement. In unusual circumstances, eBay may pay return postage."

Now my hubby works in litigation and he has just told me over the phone that if an item arrives faulty and not as described, I should be able to recind? (is that the right word?) the contract! I guess meaning that the contract is null and void and therefore I should be entitled to all out of pocket expenses, including postage costs. Is this right?

Are Ebay in the wrong here? Can they really get away with this? It all seems very unfair!

If any of you experts out there can shed some clarity on this it would be much appreciated. I really feel strongly about this and am prepared to take this to a small claims if necessary, because I don't think this is fair.

(Sorry about the crazy font colours and sizes in this post, I copied some titles over from Ebay and it messed it all up, tried to change it back but it will not play ball )

Valli

well, first of all you would have been better posting in the e bay board.

so I suggest you PM (Private Message) Member SQUEAKY and ask for the thread to be moved there.

Secondly can you specify whether these are private sellers or businesses on ebay?

In both cases it would appear that these items are not as described. In which case the sellers *may* be required to pay return postage too. But ask this on the ebay board where, among others, Soolin and Crowqueen are experts!

lovinituk

Your contract is not with ebay, its with the seller. ebay/paypal can't force a seller to refund more than they received in the first place. If the item was faulty or misdescribed then yes you are due your return costs back but its up to you to take it further outside of ebay e.g. small claims (which we all know is not worth it for such a small amount). Suck it up and move on.

tattycath

I've just posted something out to someone yesterday and the buyer has said it is not what I thought it was, so they are returning it. I am a private seller and I'm giving her a full refund-including return postage costs-it's not the buyers fault and they should not be out of pocket imo.

lovinituk

tattycath wrote: »

it's not the buyers fault and they should not be out of pocket imo.

No its not, but if a seller refuses to refund the return costs then its got nothing to do with ebay and they can't do anything. Its up to the buyer to pursue it via other means.

Although in your example are you saying you described it wrong? If not then it is the buyers fault and they have just changed their mind in which case they are not due a refund of return costs.

Okydoky25

Make your claim with PayPal not eBay. I just had a claim settled I received a full refund with no need to return the item

Astaril

lovinituk wrote: »

Your contract is not with ebay, its with the seller. ebay/paypal can't force a seller to refund more than they received in the first place. If the item was faulty or misdescribed then yes you are due your return costs back but its up to you to take it further outside of ebay e.g. small claims (which we all know is not worth it for such a small amount). Suck it up and move on.

Hi thanks for all your comments here,

First I am sorry I am new to the board and was not aware there was a separate ebay forum.

Second, I think my point is being missed. The scandle is that Ebay are giving out incorrect advise on this matter. Which is leading to buyers being out of pocket as a result. While I accept Ebay are not the law and can not force a seller to pay the return postage, they should not be ADVISING them that they don't have to!!!

@Lovinituk, Thanks (I think), but don't you see that the principle is all wrong on this, why should I have to suck it up. It is a moral issue here, one that I want to do something about. I would appreciate any help into how I can change this madness. Really I need someone like Martin Lewis to highlight this issue in the media and put pressure on Ebay to change this "advice" that seems to give sellers and excuse to send any old misdescribed tat out knowing full well the buyer will not want to bother with return postage costs. Another example would be on items where the postage cost is higher than the cost of item. This should not be allowed to happen.

arcon5

Okydoky25 wrote: »

Make your claim with PayPal not eBay. I just had a claim settled I received a full refund with no need to return the item

What was the item value? If low value eBay often offer gestures of goodwill for what it considers non-fault claims

Op your rights are with the seller, not eBay - your rights being they should cover or reimburse your expenses for returning the goods under the Sales of Goods Act. Ebays terms or the sellers terms cannot contract this right out.

wealdroam

Astaril wrote: »

The scandle is that Ebay are giving out incorrect advise on this matter. Which is leading to buyers being out of pocket as a result. While I accept Ebay are not the law and can not force a seller to pay the return postage, they should not be ADVISING them that they don't have to!!!

OP, there really is not a lot wrong in that quote you used.
Here it is again, for completeness...

If you're given a refund, you'll usually receive it through same payment method that you used to pay for the item. If you bought an item with a payment method other than PayPal, we'll ask you to confirm receipt of the refund.
A full refund is one that covers the cost of the item and original postage. If you've received an item and want a full refund, you'll usually need to send the item back to the seller. Buyers are responsible for paying return postage unless the buyer and seller have reached a different agreement. In unusual circumstances, eBay may pay return postage.

In some situations that quote is absolutely right.
For example, if the buyer changes their mind and decides they want to return the thing for a full refund, then the buyer should, rightly, pay for the return of the item.
Another example is if the seller is a private seller and the goods go faulty after a short time, then the buyer again should pay the return cost (not my opinion, Sale of Goods Act stuff).

So you see, taking that quote in isolation is at its worst, misleading.

As has been mentioned earlier, ebay are neither the buyer or seller.
If the buyer or seller cannot reach an agreement on who pays return postage, then there is always the small claims court, if appropriate.

I do not know where exactly you got your quote from, but just to demonstrate that 'other answers are available', I entered who pays return postage on ebay's customer support webpage, and got this...

In general, the seller is obliged to pay for return postage costs, unless they specified in their return policy that the buyer pays for this. Sellers can also provide a return postage address and additional return postage information for the buyer in My eBay.

They go on to say that things might be different for business sellers...

For business sellers, view how the law relates to returns and warranties you offer and how you can best handle returns.

So in summary, I am not sure that Ebay are encouraging sellers to do the wrong thing.

Valli

Astaril wrote: »

First I am sorry I am new to the board and was not aware there was a separate ebay forum.

No need to apologise; I was merely pointing out that there is an ebay forum

I know you're new;)

anyway as has been said, ebay aren't the seller, they are merely a conduit. If e bay were running their website in contravention of UK law it would have been news before now.

Astaril

wealdroam wrote: »

OP, there really is not a lot wrong in that quote you used.
Here it is again, for completeness...

In some situations that quote is absolutely right.
For example, if the buyer changes their mind and decides they want to return the thing for a full refund, then the buyer should, rightly, pay for the return of the item.
Another example is if the seller is a private seller and the goods go faulty after a short time, then the buyer again should pay the return cost (not my opinion, Sale of Goods Act stuff).

So you see, taking that quote in isolation is at its worst, misleading.

As has been mentioned earlier, ebay are neither the buyer or seller.
If the buyer or seller cannot reach an agreement on who pays return postage, then there is always the small claims court, if appropriate.

I do not know where exactly you got your quote from, but just to demonstrate that 'other answers are available', I entered who pays return postage on and got this...

They go on to say that things might be different for business sellers...


So in summary, I am not sure that Ebay are encouraging sellers to do the wrong thing.

Hi, thanks for your post. The text I quoted from Ebay WAS very definitely regarding items that are not as described or faulty.

Unfortunately I tried to post the link but as a newbie I can't post links but you can find it here...

Ebay help > Bidding and buying >resolving buying problems>Item not received or significantly not as described.

This is what I am getting at, it is not a case of someone changing their mind and having to pay return postage, that is reasonable.

The point I am trying to make is that Ebay are wrongly advising sellers that they don't have to pay return postage on faulty/misdescribed items when the contract law effectively states that the seller should do.

I know it is hard to believe but this really really is what Ebay are saying both in their terms and condtions and through their Ebay help service...

I will copy a conversation that the seller of the tea set sent to me, please note that I have had to remove the names of the Ebay guy and the seller as it displayed his full name and I don't think I should show that publicly.

Ebay person 17:21:09
Welcome to eBay Live Help, my name is Steve. How may I help you?

seller of teaset 17:21:58
Hi there,

seller of teaset 17:23:07
I sold the item number xxx but have been contacted by the buyer to say part of the teaset had been broken and glued back together - I had absolutely no idea that it had (I couldn't tell and I used them as my wedding centre pieces) - I am sure the buyer is right but do I offer a refund and ask them to send it back to me? What is the best way forward?

Ebay person 17:25:09
I appreciate your initiative and understanding in this matter.

Ebay person 17:26:34
Just as you have mentioned, you can ask the buyer to send back the item and after the item gets, you can refund the buyer.

seller of teaset 17:27:04
So I refund the lot and the postage back to me?

Ebay person 17:27:18
After that you have refunded the buyer, you can open cancel transaction case to cancel this sale.

seller of teaset 17:27:34
Okay

Ebay person 17:27:54
You are only supposed to make the redund of the item price that was paid by the buyer for buying it

seller of teaset 17:27:54
What if the buyer refuses to post it back? I am just thinking of all possibilities!

Ebay person 17:28:12
The return postage cost must be at the responsibility of the buyer.

seller of teaset 17:28:32
Okay - even tho the buyer is saying it wasn't in my item description?

Ebay person 17:30:08
You can come in terms with the buyer upon discussing this issue over the phone and tell them about the proceeding. This would definitely avoid any further disputes. Ebay person 17:30:23
Here's how to request their phone number:

1. Click 'Advanced Search' at the top of any eBay page.

2. Click 'Find Contact Information' in the box on the left.

3. Enter the buyer's user ID and the item number.

4. Click the 'Search' button.

We'll send you an email with the member's contact information, including phone number. At the same time, we'll also send an email to the other trading member with your contact information

seller of teaset 17:31:09
Okay thank you

Ebay person 17:31:59
You are welcome. Thank you for using eBay Live Help; I hope you have a good day.

System17:32:05
The chat session is being wrapped up.

System17:32:05
The chat session has ended.

System17:32:05
This chat was on 07/30/2012. All times in the above transcript are in the following time zone: (GMT) Greenwich Mean Time : Dublin, Edinburgh, Lisbon, London