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Updated alleged new descriptors for WCA.
rogerblack
Posts: 9,446 Forumite
The below descriptors were obtained from from here
I've posted before on this topic, and the previous set of descriptors seemed far, far too 'wooly' for them to be real.
These look at least somewhat plausible.
They have weaknesses - while the distances in the existing test for mobilisation for example are somewhat arbitrary, they are at least useful.
If these are real, then it is unlikely they would be brought in for another 12 months, given the various delays in the system.
It's quite likely that they will be used for both ESA, and UC.
The formatting is a bit broken, the general idea is that each descriptor has various different options, and these can each vary in severity.
So, you have a 'two dimensional' system - if something disables you very badly for a small fraction of the time, it may attract the same points as a more moderate disability that is constant.
I've not seen anything clearly breaking down the scoring.
Movement - within a work environment or travelling to work
1. Mobilising
Mobilising unaided by another person with or without a walking stick, manual wheelchair or other aid normally used, for long periods indoors and outdoors without stopping, and climbing a flight of 12 steps without discomfort, exhaustion or risk of falling. This must be done reliably, repeatedly, safely and in a timely manner, which takes into account speed, time taken and manner of mobilising.
a Has no difficulty mobilising indoors and outdoors
b Cannot climb or descend a flight of 12 steps
c Has some difficulty[1] mobilizing, indoors and outdoors, for long periods[2]
d Has significant difficulty[3] mobilising, indoors and outdoors, for long periods
e Has some difficulty mobilising, indoors and outdoors, for short periods[4]
f Has significant difficulty mobilizing, indoors and outdoors, for short periods
2. Getting About
Getting to familiar and unfamiliar places reliably, repeatedly, safely and in a timely manner, unaided by another person.
a Has no difficulty getting to familiar and unfamiliar places.
b Because of distress or disorientation has some difficulty getting to unfamiliar places
c Because of distress or disorientation has significant difficulty getting to unfamiliar places
d Because of distress or disorientation has some difficulty getting to familiar places
e Because of distress or disorientation has significant difficulty getting to familiar places
3. Navigating
Navigating around familiar and unfamiliar places unaided by another person reliably, repeatedly, safely and in a timely manner, using a guide dog or other aid if normally used.
a Able to navigate around familiar and unfamiliar places
b Has some difficulty navigating around unfamiliar surroundings, without being accompanied by another person, due to sensory impairment
c Has significant difficulty navigating around unfamiliar surroundings, without being accompanied by another person, due to sensory impairment
d Has some difficulty navigating around familiar surroundings, without being accompanied by another person, due to sensory impairment
e Has significant difficulty navigating around familiar surroundings, without being accompanied by another person, due to sensory impairment
Movement – at a work station
4. Standing and sitting
Reliably, repeatedly, safely and in a timely manner, using any aid that it is reasonable to expect them to use, and without receiving physical assistance from another person:
· Staying in one position (such as a workstation) for at least an hour, either by standing, sitting or a combination of the two, and
· Moving between this position and another.
a Able to stay in one position for at least an hour, either by standing, sitting or a combination of the two, and able to move between this position and another
Claimant cannot:
b Stay in one position (either by standing, sitting, or a combination of the two) unassisted by another person in one place for more than one hour without significant discomfort, loss of balance or exhaustion
c Stay in one position unassisted by another person in one place for more than 30 minutes (either by standing, sitting, or a combination of the two) without significant discomfort, loss of balance or exhaustion
d Move from a seated position to a mobilising position without physical assistance from another person
5. Reaching, picking up and moving
Reaching up, down or sideways a reasonable distance, and picking up and move a range of differently-sized objects up to 1kg
a Has no difficulty reaching and picking up objects
Due to difficulties with movement, strength, sensation or co-ordination of the upper body (arms, shoulders, back, neck) and/or lower body (hips, knees, ankles), cannot repeatedly, reliably and safely, without significant discomfort or exhaustion, from standing or sitting:
b Reach up, down or sideways a reasonable distance and reach and pick up and move a range of differently-sized objects up to 1kg (e.g. so as to reach and pick up something off a high or low shelf)
c Pick up and move a an object up to 1kg with either hand
d Pick up and move a bulky object (such as a cardboard box) up to 2kg
e Reach up, down (i.e. through bending, kneeling or squatting) and sideways a reasonable distance
6. Manual dexterity/ hand movement
a Has no difficulty with finger, hand or wrist movements/manual dexterity
Has difficulty in one or both hands in repeatedly, reliably, safely and in a timely manner without significant discomfort or pain:
b Gripping and turning an object such as a:
· door handle, tap, lid or cap (so as to open a bottle/jar)
· dial on a radio or piece of machinery
c Gripping and holding an object such as a:
· book weighing 500gms
d Carrying out fine motor/finger movements such as:
· doing up a button on a blouse or shirt,
· tying a knot
· opening a door with a key
· picking up and moving a 5 pence coin – so as to insert into a slot in a machine/box
· turning the pages of a book
e Creating with the dominant hand a legible message of one sentence
e Using a keyboard, mouse, cash till, telephone keypad, or similar piece of equipment/machinery
Task – task performance
7. Executing Tasks
Executing tasks reliably, repeatedly, safely and in a timely manner, unaided by another person.
a Has no difficulty executing tasks
b Needs additional time to complete some tasks such that the task would take somewhat longer
c Needs additional time to complete some tasks such that the task would take significantly longer
d Needs additional time to complete most tasks such that the task would take somewhat longer
e Needs additional time to complete most tasks such that the task would take significantly longer
8. Maintaining Focus
Maintain focus to complete tasks reliably, repeatedly, safely and in a timely manner, unaided by another person.
a Has no difficulty maintaining focus
b Due to poor memory or concentration, has difficulty maintaining focus on some tasks[5]
c Due to poor memory or concentration, has difficulty maintaining focus on most tasks
d Due to poor memory or concentration, has difficulty maintaining focus on all tasks
9. Learning Tasks
Learning processes necessary to having a job, and undertaking tasks within it
a Is able to learn processes necessary to having a job
No longer requires support to carry out the task after
2-3 occasions
Between 4 and 9 occasions
10 or more occasions
Cannot learn task
b Has difficulties learning a complex task[6]
c Has difficulties learning a moderately complex task
d Has difficulties learning a simple task
Task - risk
10. Awareness of Hazards
Being aware of potential hazards.
a Is fully aware of potential hazards
b Some reduced awareness of hazards leads to risk(s) of harm to self or others, or of damage to property or possessions
c Moderately reduced awareness of hazards leads to risk(s) of harm to self or others, or of damage to property or possessions
d Significantly reduced awareness of hazards leads to risk(s) of harm to self or others, or of damage to property or possessions
11. Consciousness
a Does not experience episodes of lost or altered consciousness
At least twice in last 6 months
At least once a month in the last 6 months
At least once a week
b Has an involuntary episode of lost or altered consciousness resulting in significant disrupted awareness or concentration with a recovery time that is normally less than one hour
c Has an involuntary episode of lost or altered consciousness resulting in significant disrupted awareness or concentration with a recovery time that is normally more than one hour
12. Bladder/ bowel continence
a Has no difficulty with continence
b Experiences an unusual and/or frequent need to use the toilet (or manage a collecting device), due to an underlying health condition or the side effects of essential medication
c Without immediate urgent access[2] to a toilet, suitably modified where appropriate, would experience loss of control
d Has experienced unpredictable or recurrent loss of control[1]
Communication
13. Understanding communication
Understanding communication reliably, repeatedly, safely and in a timely manner, by both verbal means (such as hearing or lip reading), non-verbal means (such as intonation or body language) and written means (such as reading 16 point print or Braille), using any aid it is reasonable to expect them to use
a
Has no difficulty understanding communication
Due to sensory, cognitive or social difficulties:
b Has some difficulty understanding complex information from a stranger
c Has significant difficulty understanding complex information from a stranger
d Has some difficulty understanding simple information from a stranger
e Has significant difficulty understanding simple information from a stranger
14. Making self understood
Making self understood reliably, repeatedly, safely and in a timely manner through speaking, writing, typing, or other means normally used, unaided by another person
a. Has no difficulty making self understood
Due to sensory, cognitive, physical or social difficulties:
b. Has some difficulty conveying complex information to strangers
c. Has significant difficulty conveying complex information to strangers
d. Has some difficulty conveying simple information to strangers
e. Has significant difficulty conveying simple information to strangers
Supporting behaviours for work
15. Social Engagement
Engaging socially
a Has no difficulty engaging socially reliably, repeatedly and safely, unaided by another person.
Because of difficulties interacting with others, anxiety, distress or other emotions:
b Has some difficulty with social engagement with people unknown to the person
c Has significant difficulty with social engagement with people unknown to the person
d Has some difficulty with social engagement with people known to the person
e Has significant difficulty with social engagement with people known to the person
16. Organising self and planning (was Managing self and schedule)
a
Has no difficulty managing him/herself and his/her schedule reliably, repeatedly and safely, unaided by another person.
b Has some difficulty managing self and schedule to an acceptable standard for much of the day
c Has significant difficulty managing self and schedule to an acceptable standard for much of the day
d Has some difficulty managing self and schedule to an acceptable standard for short periods
e Has significant difficulty managing self and schedule to an acceptable standard for short periods
17. Coping with Change
a Has no difficulty coping with minor planned changes to daily routine unaided by another person.
b Experiences some difficulties with unplanned changes to daily routine.
c Experiences significant difficulties with unplanned changes to daily routine.
d Experiences some difficulties with planned changes to daily routine.
e Experiences significant difficulties with planned changes to daily routine.
18. Appropriateness of Behaviour
a Display behaviour which work colleagues consider appropriate reliably, repeatedly and safely without support from another person
b May display moderate verbally aggressive or socially inappropriate behaviour
c May display severe verbally aggressive or socially inappropriate behaviour
d May display physically aggressive behaviour
N/A – Not applicable
Occ – Occasionally
Freq – Frequently
Most – Most or all of the time
[1] Some difficulty - could include has to do so at a slow pace and to stop during the process of walking the distance on one occasion. May have problems with balance but not at risk of falling.
[2] Long periods - can walk for a period of 10 minutes or distance of 500m, (journey to/from work: having to get out of a house to a bus stop or equivalent)
[3] Significant difficulty - could include the pace would be significantly slow, movement is restricted or painful, the person has to stop on more that one occasion, there is a significant risk / history of falling, or is unable to mobilise independently.
[4] Short period - can walk for a period of a minute (whatever consensus is for times) or distance of 50m (something that represents moving around in a work place).
[5] Tasks to be defined/ examples given
[6] Note: As an initial indicator of the level of tasks, provisional definitions of tasks could include toe following (will need further work and consultation with Mencap):
- Simple task – photocopying a single piece of paper, sweeping up
- Moderately complex task – taking a simple phone message, finding a particular item of food in a supermarket
- Complex task – ?? searching a database, working a till, taking minutes
I've posted before on this topic, and the previous set of descriptors seemed far, far too 'wooly' for them to be real.
These look at least somewhat plausible.
They have weaknesses - while the distances in the existing test for mobilisation for example are somewhat arbitrary, they are at least useful.
If these are real, then it is unlikely they would be brought in for another 12 months, given the various delays in the system.
It's quite likely that they will be used for both ESA, and UC.
The formatting is a bit broken, the general idea is that each descriptor has various different options, and these can each vary in severity.
So, you have a 'two dimensional' system - if something disables you very badly for a small fraction of the time, it may attract the same points as a more moderate disability that is constant.
I've not seen anything clearly breaking down the scoring.
Movement - within a work environment or travelling to work
1. Mobilising
Mobilising unaided by another person with or without a walking stick, manual wheelchair or other aid normally used, for long periods indoors and outdoors without stopping, and climbing a flight of 12 steps without discomfort, exhaustion or risk of falling. This must be done reliably, repeatedly, safely and in a timely manner, which takes into account speed, time taken and manner of mobilising.
a Has no difficulty mobilising indoors and outdoors
b Cannot climb or descend a flight of 12 steps
c Has some difficulty[1] mobilizing, indoors and outdoors, for long periods[2]
d Has significant difficulty[3] mobilising, indoors and outdoors, for long periods
e Has some difficulty mobilising, indoors and outdoors, for short periods[4]
f Has significant difficulty mobilizing, indoors and outdoors, for short periods
2. Getting About
Getting to familiar and unfamiliar places reliably, repeatedly, safely and in a timely manner, unaided by another person.
a Has no difficulty getting to familiar and unfamiliar places.
b Because of distress or disorientation has some difficulty getting to unfamiliar places
c Because of distress or disorientation has significant difficulty getting to unfamiliar places
d Because of distress or disorientation has some difficulty getting to familiar places
e Because of distress or disorientation has significant difficulty getting to familiar places
3. Navigating
Navigating around familiar and unfamiliar places unaided by another person reliably, repeatedly, safely and in a timely manner, using a guide dog or other aid if normally used.
a Able to navigate around familiar and unfamiliar places
b Has some difficulty navigating around unfamiliar surroundings, without being accompanied by another person, due to sensory impairment
c Has significant difficulty navigating around unfamiliar surroundings, without being accompanied by another person, due to sensory impairment
d Has some difficulty navigating around familiar surroundings, without being accompanied by another person, due to sensory impairment
e Has significant difficulty navigating around familiar surroundings, without being accompanied by another person, due to sensory impairment
Movement – at a work station
4. Standing and sitting
Reliably, repeatedly, safely and in a timely manner, using any aid that it is reasonable to expect them to use, and without receiving physical assistance from another person:
· Staying in one position (such as a workstation) for at least an hour, either by standing, sitting or a combination of the two, and
· Moving between this position and another.
a Able to stay in one position for at least an hour, either by standing, sitting or a combination of the two, and able to move between this position and another
Claimant cannot:
b Stay in one position (either by standing, sitting, or a combination of the two) unassisted by another person in one place for more than one hour without significant discomfort, loss of balance or exhaustion
c Stay in one position unassisted by another person in one place for more than 30 minutes (either by standing, sitting, or a combination of the two) without significant discomfort, loss of balance or exhaustion
d Move from a seated position to a mobilising position without physical assistance from another person
5. Reaching, picking up and moving
Reaching up, down or sideways a reasonable distance, and picking up and move a range of differently-sized objects up to 1kg
a Has no difficulty reaching and picking up objects
Due to difficulties with movement, strength, sensation or co-ordination of the upper body (arms, shoulders, back, neck) and/or lower body (hips, knees, ankles), cannot repeatedly, reliably and safely, without significant discomfort or exhaustion, from standing or sitting:
b Reach up, down or sideways a reasonable distance and reach and pick up and move a range of differently-sized objects up to 1kg (e.g. so as to reach and pick up something off a high or low shelf)
c Pick up and move a an object up to 1kg with either hand
d Pick up and move a bulky object (such as a cardboard box) up to 2kg
e Reach up, down (i.e. through bending, kneeling or squatting) and sideways a reasonable distance
6. Manual dexterity/ hand movement
a Has no difficulty with finger, hand or wrist movements/manual dexterity
Has difficulty in one or both hands in repeatedly, reliably, safely and in a timely manner without significant discomfort or pain:
b Gripping and turning an object such as a:
· door handle, tap, lid or cap (so as to open a bottle/jar)
· dial on a radio or piece of machinery
c Gripping and holding an object such as a:
· book weighing 500gms
d Carrying out fine motor/finger movements such as:
· doing up a button on a blouse or shirt,
· tying a knot
· opening a door with a key
· picking up and moving a 5 pence coin – so as to insert into a slot in a machine/box
· turning the pages of a book
e Creating with the dominant hand a legible message of one sentence
e Using a keyboard, mouse, cash till, telephone keypad, or similar piece of equipment/machinery
Task – task performance
7. Executing Tasks
Executing tasks reliably, repeatedly, safely and in a timely manner, unaided by another person.
a Has no difficulty executing tasks
b Needs additional time to complete some tasks such that the task would take somewhat longer
c Needs additional time to complete some tasks such that the task would take significantly longer
d Needs additional time to complete most tasks such that the task would take somewhat longer
e Needs additional time to complete most tasks such that the task would take significantly longer
8. Maintaining Focus
Maintain focus to complete tasks reliably, repeatedly, safely and in a timely manner, unaided by another person.
a Has no difficulty maintaining focus
b Due to poor memory or concentration, has difficulty maintaining focus on some tasks[5]
c Due to poor memory or concentration, has difficulty maintaining focus on most tasks
d Due to poor memory or concentration, has difficulty maintaining focus on all tasks
9. Learning Tasks
Learning processes necessary to having a job, and undertaking tasks within it
a Is able to learn processes necessary to having a job
No longer requires support to carry out the task after
2-3 occasions
Between 4 and 9 occasions
10 or more occasions
Cannot learn task
b Has difficulties learning a complex task[6]
c Has difficulties learning a moderately complex task
d Has difficulties learning a simple task
Task - risk
10. Awareness of Hazards
Being aware of potential hazards.
a Is fully aware of potential hazards
b Some reduced awareness of hazards leads to risk(s) of harm to self or others, or of damage to property or possessions
c Moderately reduced awareness of hazards leads to risk(s) of harm to self or others, or of damage to property or possessions
d Significantly reduced awareness of hazards leads to risk(s) of harm to self or others, or of damage to property or possessions
11. Consciousness
a Does not experience episodes of lost or altered consciousness
At least twice in last 6 months
At least once a month in the last 6 months
At least once a week
b Has an involuntary episode of lost or altered consciousness resulting in significant disrupted awareness or concentration with a recovery time that is normally less than one hour
c Has an involuntary episode of lost or altered consciousness resulting in significant disrupted awareness or concentration with a recovery time that is normally more than one hour
12. Bladder/ bowel continence
a Has no difficulty with continence
b Experiences an unusual and/or frequent need to use the toilet (or manage a collecting device), due to an underlying health condition or the side effects of essential medication
c Without immediate urgent access[2] to a toilet, suitably modified where appropriate, would experience loss of control
d Has experienced unpredictable or recurrent loss of control[1]
Communication
13. Understanding communication
Understanding communication reliably, repeatedly, safely and in a timely manner, by both verbal means (such as hearing or lip reading), non-verbal means (such as intonation or body language) and written means (such as reading 16 point print or Braille), using any aid it is reasonable to expect them to use
a
Has no difficulty understanding communication
Due to sensory, cognitive or social difficulties:
b Has some difficulty understanding complex information from a stranger
c Has significant difficulty understanding complex information from a stranger
d Has some difficulty understanding simple information from a stranger
e Has significant difficulty understanding simple information from a stranger
14. Making self understood
Making self understood reliably, repeatedly, safely and in a timely manner through speaking, writing, typing, or other means normally used, unaided by another person
a. Has no difficulty making self understood
Due to sensory, cognitive, physical or social difficulties:
b. Has some difficulty conveying complex information to strangers
c. Has significant difficulty conveying complex information to strangers
d. Has some difficulty conveying simple information to strangers
e. Has significant difficulty conveying simple information to strangers
Supporting behaviours for work
15. Social Engagement
Engaging socially
a Has no difficulty engaging socially reliably, repeatedly and safely, unaided by another person.
Because of difficulties interacting with others, anxiety, distress or other emotions:
b Has some difficulty with social engagement with people unknown to the person
c Has significant difficulty with social engagement with people unknown to the person
d Has some difficulty with social engagement with people known to the person
e Has significant difficulty with social engagement with people known to the person
16. Organising self and planning (was Managing self and schedule)
a
Has no difficulty managing him/herself and his/her schedule reliably, repeatedly and safely, unaided by another person.
b Has some difficulty managing self and schedule to an acceptable standard for much of the day
c Has significant difficulty managing self and schedule to an acceptable standard for much of the day
d Has some difficulty managing self and schedule to an acceptable standard for short periods
e Has significant difficulty managing self and schedule to an acceptable standard for short periods
17. Coping with Change
a Has no difficulty coping with minor planned changes to daily routine unaided by another person.
b Experiences some difficulties with unplanned changes to daily routine.
c Experiences significant difficulties with unplanned changes to daily routine.
d Experiences some difficulties with planned changes to daily routine.
e Experiences significant difficulties with planned changes to daily routine.
18. Appropriateness of Behaviour
a Display behaviour which work colleagues consider appropriate reliably, repeatedly and safely without support from another person
b May display moderate verbally aggressive or socially inappropriate behaviour
c May display severe verbally aggressive or socially inappropriate behaviour
d May display physically aggressive behaviour
N/A – Not applicable
Occ – Occasionally
Freq – Frequently
Most – Most or all of the time
[1] Some difficulty - could include has to do so at a slow pace and to stop during the process of walking the distance on one occasion. May have problems with balance but not at risk of falling.
[2] Long periods - can walk for a period of 10 minutes or distance of 500m, (journey to/from work: having to get out of a house to a bus stop or equivalent)
[3] Significant difficulty - could include the pace would be significantly slow, movement is restricted or painful, the person has to stop on more that one occasion, there is a significant risk / history of falling, or is unable to mobilise independently.
[4] Short period - can walk for a period of a minute (whatever consensus is for times) or distance of 50m (something that represents moving around in a work place).
[5] Tasks to be defined/ examples given
[6] Note: As an initial indicator of the level of tasks, provisional definitions of tasks could include toe following (will need further work and consultation with Mencap):
- Simple task – photocopying a single piece of paper, sweeping up
- Moderately complex task – taking a simple phone message, finding a particular item of food in a supermarket
- Complex task – ?? searching a database, working a till, taking minutes
0
Comments
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Interesting.0
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HiYa, yes we looked at this just recently. You, I, and others looked around to find the origin of the mysterious new descriptors to decide on their efficacy. I decided at that time this was probably the input from the MSS / NAT / Parkinsons / Arthritis / Chrons-Colitis collative / collective lobby recommendations to the scrutiny panel prior to the ESA / WCA review. In this case those bodies representing the groups of individuals most marginalised by the current system .. .. those who have 'fluctuating conditions' put in a 'wish list' for post Harrington changes descriptors to cater more for fluctuating conditions'
Basically they argued that current assessment does not cater for such 'complex fluctuating conditions' because some descriptors :
- incorporate a time dimension, some don't
- some descriptors cover a range of severity through allocating 6, 9 or 15 points ,others don't
- in the new WCA descriptors have been watered down so that points will only be allocated to those with the very highest and most serious barriers
- that the boundary between ‘capability for work’ and ‘limited capability for work' has been blurred
I hope you are correct and something is afoot, however there's nothing in the training of staff arena which is always the first to move at least 12 months or so before anything else.Disclaimer : Everything I write on this forum is my opinion. I try to be an even-handed poster and accept that you at times may not agree with these opinions or how I choose to express them, this is not my problem. The Disabled : If years cannot be added to their lives, at least life can be added to their years - Alf Morris - ℜ0 -
Richie-from-the-Boro wrote: »I hope you are correct and something is afoot, however there's nothing in the training of staff arena which is always the first to move at least 12 months or so before anything else.
I don't understand why this isn't a formal consultation. It seems a lot of effort to go to to make up random fake descriptors, but...
There is no open consultation on the DWP site that seems relevant to this.
I have no view on if these are better or worse - I haven't really studied them deeply.
It depresses me somewhat that the work I'll be doing over the next several weeks preparing arguments for why various support group descriptors apply to me may not be relevant at my next WCA.
I suppose one approach would be a FOIA request about new descriptor design processes.0 -
rogerblack wrote: »I don't understand why this isn't a formal consultation. It seems a lot of effort to go to to make up random fake descriptors, but...
There is no open consultation on the DWP site that seems relevant to this.
I have no view on if these are better or worse - I haven't really studied them deeply.
It depresses me somewhat that the work I'll be doing over the next several weeks preparing arguments for why various support group descriptors apply to me may not be relevant at my next WCA.
I suppose one approach would be a FOIA request about new descriptor design processes.
- the one I referred to was published in April 2011
- the DOBS blog you referred to was August 2012
- the origins of which, also August 2012 are here
- that site said "A week or so ago, we were sent a new set of descriptors anonymously that seemed to be significant improvement"
And that's where my problem started, they were not a new set of descriptors, they were a wish list of unofficial adjustments to descriptors published 18 months ago by a charity lobbying on behalf of :
- mental health charities
- learning disabilities charities
- charities representing those with fluctuating conditions
Not one single other person / site / blog etc has given any validity to the original 'hit the fan' comments, not one. Similarly other charity's representing other diverse groups also lobbied at that same time, now a long time ago with their preferred bias to the descriptors, each going in a quite different direction according to the needs / wishes of their membership. Hopefully some / all / the odd one will be taken on board, but given what we know of the Governments purposeful and rigidly unforgiving design of the ATOS / LiMA application it seems more in hope than expectation.
They were not fake descriptors they were merely alternative preferred descriptors suggested by lobby groups in the hope that Government would take them on board. I've read three or more alternatives suggested by different lobbyists on behalf of different charities representing different areas of disability. Look I wish it could be different M8, and I hope I'm wrong and that they are being 'consulted upon' but I'm not at all sure that is the case.Disclaimer : Everything I write on this forum is my opinion. I try to be an even-handed poster and accept that you at times may not agree with these opinions or how I choose to express them, this is not my problem. The Disabled : If years cannot be added to their lives, at least life can be added to their years - Alf Morris - ℜ0 -
I would have thought that anything that smacks of a widening of the ESA gateway goalposts or a fairer set of descriptors thus allowing possibly more sick and disabled people onto the benefit is an antithisis to the tory mindset.
It would be nice to think that these [fairer] descriptors may see the light of day on an ESA50 but given the nastiness that the tories with the help of the lib-dems have heaped onto the sick and disabled I think there's more chance of Nick Clegg growing a spine!!0 -
I see I mis-edited.
The above are only fake in the sense of the questions raised above.
They are being presented by various sites as definite, without going into detail on who wrote them, where they were submitted to, under what authority ...
Clearly, they weren't solely written to mislead.0 -
I've not seen anything clearly breaking down the scoring.
With regard to the latest version of the Evidence BasedReview WCA descriptors dated 2/08/12, there's a slightly different scoringsystem proposed, but for consultation purposes all you really need to know isthat the N/A, Occasional, Frequent, Most boxes roughly correlate to points asfollows, 0, 6, 9, 15.
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rogerblack wrote: »I don't understand why this isn't a formal consultation. It seems a lot of effort to go to to make up random fake descriptors, but...
There is no open consultation on the DWP site that seems relevant to this.
I have no view on if these are better or worse - I haven't really studied them deeply.
It depresses me somewhat that the work I'll be doing over the next several weeks preparing arguments for why various support group descriptors apply to me may not be relevant at my next WCA.
I suppose one approach would be a FOIA request about new descriptor design processes.
Roger, your question - UPDATE - two days ago [ search for Atos Healthcare ] - Chris Grayling: ATOS debate transcript 4th September 2012
Stephen Timms:
“we have been carefully considering how to build an appropriate evidence base around the proposed new descriptors…Terms of reference have been agreed and we aim to publish a report of the Evidence Based Review in the spring of 2013.”—[Official Report, 25 June 2012; Vol. 19, c. 54W.]
I want to ask the Minister two questions. First, on recording assessments—this might appear to be a minor issue, but it has been raised several times in the debate—will he stand by the commitment he made in Westminster Hall in February that people who want recordings will be able to have them? He seemed to have reneged on that commitment in the letter to me that was written by officials, but signed by him, about a case that I raised. Secondly, will he get these new descriptors evaluated quickly—he can urge his successor to get a move on—do so transparently, and make the changes quickly after the evaluation is completed?
The Minister will acknowledge, however, that the new descriptors that have been proposed for mental health conditions and for fluctuating conditions are nowhere near being implemented. When does he expect that they will be implemented?
Chris Grayling:
"""The right hon. Gentleman also asked about the new descriptors that were brought forward by the charities, but he is out of date. The charities have been working with us for the past few weeks on the assessment project of the package that they brought forward. The work was finished last week. The charities actually wanted more time to work with us because the process is complicated and we are trying to mesh mental health issues and fluctuating conditions. As I said in Westminster Hall about 12 months ago, the problem that I had with the recommendations that the charities made in the first place was that they did not come forward simply with adjustments to the existing descriptors, but instead with a comprehensive reorganisation of the whole assessment, which would also have involved a redesign of the physical descriptors. Given that the right hon. Gentleman has carried out such projects in the DWP, he will know well that that would be a two or three-year project.
We have tried to take forward some of the suggestions that the charities made and embed them into elements such as the ESA50 form, and we are now working with the charities to road test all this work to see if it really makes a difference. However, I am not going to embark on a major overhaul of the whole exercise based on a set of recommendations that are not backed by evidence without our having tested them in the way in which the previous Government tested recommendations: by putting real cases against proposed descriptors and making a comparison between the outcomes of the theoretical new descriptors and the old descriptors. Such work is on track. We are pushing the charities to make progress, because I want to get the work done, and we are still on track to complete the gold standard review in the spring.
"""Disclaimer : Everything I write on this forum is my opinion. I try to be an even-handed poster and accept that you at times may not agree with these opinions or how I choose to express them, this is not my problem. The Disabled : If years cannot be added to their lives, at least life can be added to their years - Alf Morris - ℜ0
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