when you reach breaking point

freyasmum

DonaldTrumpsHair wrote: »

OK I know it's a bit much to talk about shopping in Waitrose when we are all struggling so much, but we honestly only buy Tesco matched items!

Something that makes my blood get warm is those tokens they give you. At the end of the store (our store), they make a big thing that they give £1,000 per month divided between three local charities. It all sounds well and good till you think that it is our money they are donating and not only that Waitrose must make that amount within an hour of opening of a morning.

As said, they do this in Asda now too - and I'm sure we'd all agree that that's at the exact opposite end of the grocery shopping scale!

These shops will make profits regardless, it's just their way to show how they 'care' about and 'give back' to their community. It's just a bit of PR for them and being seen to be doing good is positive marketing that it's worth giving a little of their profit to - it's much, much cheaper than advertising. Don't think they'd bring their prices down if they stopped the charity work - 'our money' would then go straight into the pockets of their shareholders.


Like gallygirl and LiR, I'm thankful every day that I'm not in the position of some of the posters here. I don't have millions of pounds, but I have simple needs. I'm also lucky that my industry is mostly recession proof

PipneyJane

Firstly, I'd like to thank everyone for their interesting and thought provoking posts.

lostinrates wrote: »

I hate the immigration issue. Generally i feel we are overpopulated. Not just the high population density uk, but the world.

My parents....one half anglo/welsh for pretty much ever the other half irish, crossed with an immgrant, (ironically from uk stock in colonies). My husband....one side half english jew for generations, other half german jew, the other half italian/english jew. Are we immigrants or not? My sister was not born in uk (and both her parenets are not english) but sounds as english as any one, is white, blonde, blue eyed. I look far less 'english' but was born here.

I would HATE to live in a mono cultural society, and imo one of the things we can be proud of here is that we embrace, forexample, other cuisines. Its also hard to stomach that its ok for some one who has taken from the system from day one of life is ok because they are white british, but someone who has a bad six months depsite several tax paying years here is 'not welcome' or less of an asset.

LIR, you could be my cousin.

I do think that class is an issue, for all sorts of reasons. There is a degree of inverted snobbery in Britain, which stops people from aiming as high as they could. In Australia, it's called "the tall poppy syndrome". Someone flys higher than their peer group and then the gossip starts. Everyone else is busy sitting on the sidelines trying to cut them down to size/hoping they'll fail.

Class is also a convenient label to stick on someone in order to pigeonhole them, as well as using it to clip their expectations. Using me as an example: I was at the Proms last night watching a performance of Yeoman of the Guard. What stereotypes does that statement bring to mind? Did you automatically think: middle class? Classical music? Monied background?

Actually it tells you nothing, other than I have a taste for G&S and that I can afford £8.50 for a ticket. For the record: my dad worked in a factory and reached the dizzy heights of maintenance foreman. His parents ran a greengrocers and once had to do a midnight flit for unpaid rent. (They eventually paid it back.) My mum trained as a dressmaker but worked in a department store. Her mum supported her "businessman" husband and family by working as a cleaner. Typical middle-class background, no? :rotfl:

There was a book reviewed in yesterday's "Culture" (Sunday Times) that looks at the decline of the Working Class. I'm typing from memory but, in the early 1950's, something like 25% of the world's manufacturing was done in Britain. Within 10 years, manufacturing had begun its downward spiral and a lot of the old industries were on the brink of closing. If that hadn't happened, maybe the class system would have finally worn itself out. Why it happened, I don't know enough to comment. (The book is going on my Amazon wishlist.)

The problem with the prevailing economic wisdom is that there is a dichotomy. The sooner Britain takes its medicine and clears the deficit, the better for us in the long term. However, a lot of people are suffering and will suffer in the interim. Since our economy is so dependent on consumption, which is dropping, economic growth just isn't happening so the medicine gets more painful. Which causes consumption to weaken further. And the cycle gets worse. And more people suffer.


I wish we could see into a parallel world where some of the critical actions from the credit crunch didn't happen:-

• Instead of bailing them out, the Government let RBS fail.
• LloydsTSB wasn't pursuaded to take over HBOS. Would HBOS have gone under? Would it have broken up?
• Northern Rock did not get nationalised.
• VAT did not temporarily drop to 15%. (A move that never seemed logical to me. It cost a lot of money for little benefit.)

Would we be in a better or worse place than we are now?

For those that feel like bashing profitable companies, remember they employ people. And profitable companies pay tax, which benefits the rest of us. (Feel free to "out" those who dodge it.) They also pay dividends (or should do), which benefits anyone with a private pension, endowment policy, unit trust or direct share investment.

We need to rejuvinate manufacturing in the UK. That's where real wealth comes from. I would like to see incentives for companies to invest in manufacturing and additional incentives for businesses to source goods/equipment made in Britain, thus strengthening the supply chain. (Perhaps a discount on VAT or a discount on corporation tax, after provision of suitable evidence.)

What else can we do to fix things?

oldtractor

The only thing to do when the SHTF is to radically re organise your life. .It happens. Personally we have gone from a 3 bed to a 2 bed [ but in a better area ] and now have 1 car instead of 2. Down from 5 horses to 2. we rarely eat out or go on holiday. You just have to cope somehow.

lostinrates

PipneyJane wrote: »

Firstly, I'd like to thank everyone for their interesting and thought provoking posts.



LIR, you could be my cousin.

Well, i would very much like to be, i love ypur posts.

gettingready

From my own personal perspective - I am glad there are more people on here who have pets and do NOT see "getting rid of" them as part of improving the end of month balance.

My lot cost me a small fortune BUT - rather cut everywhere else then not have them here at home with me.

I am absolutely dreading any rises at all though - already pay £84.50 per month (only as I take a longer route to/from work to avoid paying for travel into/through zone 1 in London). And that is for the pleasure of standing all the way with my nose under someone;s unwashed arm (why people do not have a shower before leaving home in the morning>????), having another person's backpack jammed into my face (I am short), having at least 3 people's "music" giving mi a migraine and no doubt picking up every sneezing/caughing person's germs... By the time I leave the train to walk to work - I am ready to come back home, have a shower and pretty much collapse - joys of the over priced public transport.. sigh....

Dippypud

PipneyJane wrote: »

Firstly, I'd like to thank everyone for their interesting and thought provoking posts.
LIR, you could be my cousin.

I do think that class is an issue, for all sorts of reasons. There is a degree of inverted snobbery in Britain, which stops people from aiming as high as they could. In Australia, it's called "the tall poppy syndrome". Someone flys higher than their peer group and then the gossip starts. Everyone else is busy sitting on the sidelines trying to cut them down to size/hoping they'll fail.

Class is also a convenient label to stick on someone in order to pigeonhole them, as well as using it to clip their expectations. Using me as an example: I was at the Proms last night watching a performance of Yeoman of the Guard. What stereotypes does that statement bring to mind? Did you automatically think: middle class? Classical music? Monied background?

Actually it tells you nothing, other than I have a taste for G&S and that I can afford £8.50 for a ticket. For the record: my dad worked in a factory and reached the dizzy heights of maintenance foreman. His parents ran a greengrocers and once had to do a midnight flit for unpaid rent. (They eventually paid it back.) My mum trained as a dressmaker but worked in a department store. Her mum supported her "businessman" husband and family by working as a cleaner. Typical middle-class background, no? :rotfl:

There was a book reviewed in yesterday's "Culture" (Sunday Times) that looks at the decline of the Working Class. I'm typing from memory but, in the early 1950's, something like 25% of the world's manufacturing was done in Britain. Within 10 years, manufacturing had begun its downward spiral and a lot of the old industries were on the brink of closing. If that hadn't happened, maybe the class system would have finally worn itself out. Why it happened, I don't know enough to comment. (The book is going on my Amazon wishlist.)

The problem with the prevailing economic wisdom is that there is a dichotomy. The sooner Britain takes its medicine and clears the deficit, the better for us in the long term. However, a lot of people are suffering and will suffer in the interim. Since our economy is so dependent on consumption, which is dropping, economic growth just isn't happening so the medicine gets more painful. Which causes consumption to weaken further. And the cycle gets worse. And more people suffer.



I wish we could see into a parallel world where some of the critical actions from the credit crunch didn't happen:-

• Instead of bailing them out, the Government let RBS fail.
• LloydsTSB wasn't pursuaded to take over HBOS. Would HBOS have gone under? Would it have broken up?
• Northern Rock did not get nationalised.
• VAT did not temporarily drop to 15%. (A move that never seemed logical to me. It cost a lot of money for little benefit.)

Would we be in a better or worse place than we are now?

For those that feel like bashing profitable companies, remember they employ people. And profitable companies pay tax, which benefits the rest of us. (Feel free to "out" those who dodge it.) They also pay dividends (or should do), which benefits anyone with a private pension, endowment policy, unit trust or direct share investment.

We need to rejuvinate manufacturing in the UK. That's where real wealth comes from. I would like to see incentives for companies to invest in manufacturing and additional incentives for businesses to source goods/equipment made in Britain, thus strengthening the supply chain. (Perhaps a discount on VAT or a discount on corporation tax, after provision of suitable evidence.)

What else can we do to fix things?

This makes interesting reading...maybe the SHTF thread is closer than we would like to think...:(

http://beforeitsnews.com/tea-party/2012/08/why-is-george-soros-dumping-stocks-and-buying-gold-2449278.html

Becciboobah

I've been avidly reading this thread and can relate to the a majority of the posts. This is just a rant! I live in social housing and consider myself very lucky to do so. A mortgage is but a distant dream for us but as far as I am concerned I have a roof over our heads, my children are fed, clothed (albeit mainly in second hand clothes but always clean and definitely not tatty) and warm and this, in my eyes, is all that matters. We cannot afford holidays, I run a 15 year old car but we are relatively happy. I am however concerned about the rise in living costs that are far outstripping the renumeration I receive in wages. As a TA, my salary has been frozen for 3 years now but fuel, utilities and rent have increased yearly. My rent has just increased by 7%. This is a considerable hike. My partner has gone from temp job to temp job, often with considerable gaps inbetween. We just about cope now but if many more increases are made will I be able to provide for my family? But it's true to say, you have no idea what is going on behind closed doors at households considered 'affluent'. SIL has a beautiful 5 bed house in the London suburbs and all seemed perfect. She is a SAHM to 3 children. Holidays 3 times a year to long haul destinations, designer clothes, flash cars. She had no idea the electricity bills weren't being paid and more importantly, the mortgage wasn't being paid until he did a midnight flit leaving her with 3 children and the bailliffs knocking on the door. We've done our best to support her but the change in circumstances has hit her hard but she is coping and learning to budget. I thank my lucky stars that we have no debt/credit and all our bills are covered (for the time being).

I concur with the point made about the selling of possessions on eBay, boot fairs etc. You only need to see how many selling sites there are on Facebook now. There are over 11,000 members just on the one for my Borough but even that is slow going. Supply massively outstrips demand so to speak. Even prices on eBay are significantly lower than they were. It's a waste of time in me selling unwanted goods there as fee's etc make selling toys at 99p a time not worth it.

I also agree that child poverty, or what we define as poverty, is massively different here than what it is in say, the third world. We will always be fed, even if it's by food banks or the Sally Army. The state benefit system does pay a living amount to claimants but it's budgeting that lets those that are struggling down. We have a large section of society that believes in buy now, pay later and when later comes we don't have sufficient funds to repay without falling short in other places. I'm not adverse to credit, it's essential. Just not places like Crazy George's no credit-check, buy all these electronic goods at x amount per week for 100 weeks at twice their actual value which are aimed at a specific market i.e. those that can't afford it. It's become necessary for us to have iPads, 42" LCD TVs, iPhones etc. I know because I live in those places. I've just avoided that trap thanks to being brought up in a house that didn't believe in instant gratification. We saved for what we wanted and my own children have been brought up the same way but I can see just how easy it is to get into all sorts of trouble and I feel huge sympathy. We all want to feel 'normal' (whatever 'normal' is).

I just feel sick wondering what will happen to us if OH can't find work for when his contract expires in October (no chance of a renewal, he works for the Olympics). I shouldn't because it hasn't happened yet but it all seems so much worse this time because of the increases in all aspects of our spending. I also wonder how many people hired for the Olympics will be in the same boat. I know it's all what if's, but's and maybe's but I'm a natural born worrier!

Anyway, thanks for letting me put my thoughts down. Sorry it's just a rambling mess.

jackel

Hello everyone. A great big thankyou to everyone for their posts. It is sad but true that may of us are struggling. Where should we be without MSE ? I am so thankful that these problems are aired and I don't feel so isolated. Whatever happens we must all support each other and be determined that we SHALL cope. Good luck to all. jac xx

Popperwell

Becciboobah wrote: »

I've been avidly reading this thread and can relate to the a majority of the posts. This is just a rant! I live in social housing and consider myself very lucky to do so. A mortgage is but a distant dream for us but as far as I am concerned I have a roof over our heads, my children are fed, clothed (albeit mainly in second hand clothes but always clean and definitely not tatty) and warm and this, in my eyes, is all that matters. We cannot afford holidays, I run a 15 year old car but we are relatively happy. I am however concerned about the rise in living costs that are far outstripping the renumeration I receive in wages. As a TA, my salary has been frozen for 3 years now but fuel, utilities and rent have increased yearly. My rent has just increased by 7%. This is a considerable hike. My partner has gone from temp job to temp job, often with considerable gaps inbetween. We just about cope now but if many more increases are made will I be able to provide for my family? But it's true to say, you have no idea what is going on behind closed doors at households considered 'affluent'. SIL has a beautiful 5 bed house in the London suburbs and all seemed perfect. She is a SAHM to 3 children. Holidays 3 times a year to long haul destinations, designer clothes, flash cars. She had no idea the electricity bills weren't being paid and more importantly, the mortgage wasn't being paid until he did a midnight flit leaving her with 3 children and the bailliffs knocking on the door. We've done our best to support her but the change in circumstances has hit her hard but she is coping and learning to budget. I thank my lucky stars that we have no debt/credit and all our bills are covered (for the time being).

I concur with the point made about the selling of possessions on eBay, boot fairs etc. You only need to see how many selling sites there are on Facebook now. There are over 11,000 members just on the one for my Borough but even that is slow going. Supply massively outstrips demand so to speak. Even prices on eBay are significantly lower than they were. It's a waste of time in me selling unwanted goods there as fee's etc make selling toys at 99p a time not worth it.

I also agree that child poverty, or what we define as poverty, is massively different here than what it is in say, the third world. We will always be fed, even if it's by food banks or the Sally Army. The state benefit system does pay a living amount to claimants but it's budgeting that lets those that are struggling down. We have a large section of society that believes in buy now, pay later and when later comes we don't have sufficient funds to repay without falling short in other places. I'm not adverse to credit, it's essential. Just not places like Crazy George's no credit-check, buy all these electronic goods at x amount per week for 100 weeks at twice their actual value which are aimed at a specific market i.e. those that can't afford it. It's become necessary for us to have iPads, 42" LCD TVs, iPhones etc. I know because I live in those places. I've just avoided that trap thanks to being brought up in a house that didn't believe in instant gratification. We saved for what we wanted and my own children have been brought up the same way but I can see just how easy it is to get into all sorts of trouble and I feel huge sympathy. We all want to feel 'normal' (whatever 'normal' is).

I just feel sick wondering what will happen to us if OH can't find work for when his contract expires in October (no chance of a renewal, he works for the Olympics). I shouldn't because it hasn't happened yet but it all seems so much worse this time because of the increases in all aspects of our spending. I also wonder how many people hired for the Olympics will be in the same boat. I know it's all what if's, but's and maybe's but I'm a natural born worrier!

Anyway, thanks for letting me put my thoughts down. Sorry it's just a rambling mess.

Becciboobah,
I too have felt fortunate but circumstances have kept knocking "Us" back so we could not buy property or the house we are in but it gave us stability in our lives...now thanks to money being tight, being alone, prices going up, income reducing, changes to the welfare system(in my case)health problems I have uncertainty about the future...

if things stayed as they are I could manage but I know they won't. I might be able to absorb some of the costs coming in but it's too complicated to go into here, I will be penalised (and I think basic living costs will hit me hard)and then if I reapply for help i don't know if it will be there again.

I haven't had a holiday for maybe 15-20 years not only because of a lack of money but health problems and then looking after Mum.

It's the wondering and worrying about the future and the unknowns as you say. I'd like to live in the day but no matter how I keep being told "I will have a roof over my head, that I will not be made destitute"

I worry that it will happen, I wonder as rent, council tax, bedroom tax, utility bills increase can I be sure that is so...I have no family or friends to fall back on for help or to stay with.

I can and have proved I can be thrifty by eating less, learning to portion out the food I buy, looking for cheaper ways to cook hot meals, making food go further, using electric and gas less, using cheap clothes from the CS. Often eating cold meals rather than using energy to heat food.

For now getting entertainment via the internet and that also means access to a telephone(I get all that fo 90p a day)I don't think I could do it any cheaper and if I lose access to that all I'll have is a radio.

If I went out socialising it would cost much more than that. I have to have some enjoyment in life...mobility means I have to relie on public transport(Poor bus service, not that cheap)or taxi's...

I have done without for years but whilst I can, I have purchased things I think I cannot afford in the future and that will have to last me years because I may not be able to replace them. Still I bet some would come here and say I am doing ok not realising that I may not be able to even afford to run them(if they need electric to power them)nor does it show what they have replaced, items well past their useful life(Our last tv was over 30 years old)

My computers are second had/refurbished...it gives me access to the world.

How much can you keep cutting back...some charges have to be paid and are disportionate to income that is there for buying food, treats, clothes etc...and yes, even people in work are having to claim from the state or use food banks and charity shops...

I have to try and not think too far ahead and I am sure best part of the population are doing similar...

lostinrates

I like the saying about monkeys bottoms up trees. What i like most about it is that we all have bums, its just we cannot see them.

I have to say I agree so much with what pipney said about inverted snobbery and tall poppy syndrome.

I have lived in many, many places, and while there is recognition and sneering at the UK class system everywhere i have noted that there is one, often more firmly entrenched yet almost invisable, everywhere.

I also think this tenpercent at the top figure, while true, is also misleading. The real wealth is avtually held by even a smaller fraction than that. We are incredibly lucky that dh earns a very good salary. He has not always, and we never forget that earning welltoday does not mean you will earn well tomorrow, especially not in times like these. But despite our 'good' household income, we have mortgage etc, and money only stretches so far even when there is more. E.g. We have a beautiful old wreck of a house and would have loved heating last year, but there was not enough money....so we had none.

Incidentally, for those that have problems that respond to warmth, or who have children who do, I do too, and the only way we can work it out is to 'spot heat'. Electric blankets opn the bed, and hot water bottles and heaters (we have a very cantankerous wood burner, but i have also used portable heaters several times) in the room you have to be in most... To try and heat a whole house for these problems is imo difficult.

I am so grateful we are going to have heating this year, and we will need it, as parent is not young, and its different an older person in the cold to ones my age imo (i remember our houses being cold when i was little in uk though). But we will NOT be heating above eighteen degrees accept if the woodburner takes that room over.