EDF say meter not compatible

isabelle1903

Hi, I switched from British Gas to EDF Fixed Saver V2 (expires 30 Sept 3012) for both my gas and elec. Like many people I have had constant problems with my bills ... Or lack of them, having not been charged for any gas as yet ... Despite numerous phone calls. I started by paying £105 dd per month, approx £40 elec and £64 gas. The elec part was reduced back in about Jan to £30 and now again to £20.

I only realised I was not being charged for gas when I tried to view my gas usage online and submit a meter reading. After about 15 calls, being told there was a known problem, backlog etc, I was awarded a £20 goodwill payment but I have now been told that EDF do not support the meter I have (British Gas installed a new Smart meter early last year) and that I need a new meter. I refused saying I had only just had this one installed and that EDF should have checked this at the beginning of the contract. I told them I would move to another supplier who did support the meter.

I have a few questions:

1. Will other suppliers be able to support the meter or only British Gas?
2. How are EDF going to bill me/charge me? (they have the money as I pay by dd and it has just built up as a credit in my account).
3. Has anyone else had this happen?

Thanks.

macman

A smart meter can still be read conventionally as a 'dumb' meter. Or they can change the meter.

Terrylw1

Prior to your switch, your old supplier has to "dumb down" the meter so that the Meter Asset Manager (gas only) changes the data to make it appear as a standard meter.

Then when you switch, the data is passed to the new suppliers MAM who just see a standard meter, which they pass onto the new supplier.

This can be fixed easily by doing this by either supplier.

If the old supplier does it, it must get sent to the new MAM or it won't sort out the supplier record.

[Deleted User]

Thats poor advice, these B.G smart meters have been around for getting on 3 years now and its well known by the suppliers that they cant support the "smart "functionality if you switch, and they just revert back to being a normal electric meter. No need for any changes as you may fancy going back to the devil you know one day, unless you fancy having EDFs 20-20 meter in. According to a B.G. rep on here "smart switching " will be available "soon ".

British_Gas

Hello Isabelle,

sorry to hear that you've left us! Macman, TerryLw1 and Sacsquacco are right: you don't need to have the smart meter replaced. Meter readings can be read manually - as with a standard meter - while your supplier develops systems to support smart functionality.

Ofgem would like customers to be able to switch supplier AND keep the smart functions before the Data and Communications Company is set up in a couple of years (DCC is to handle data and communications to/from all smart meters for all suppliers), so some new rules are being introduced in January 2013.

Terrylw1

British_Gas_company_representative wrote: »

Hello Isabelle,

sorry to hear that you've left us! Macman, TerryLw1 and Sacsquacco are right: you don't need to have the smart meter replaced. Meter readings can be read manually - as with a standard meter - while your supplier develops systems to support smart functionality.

Ofgem would like customers to be able to switch supplier AND keep the smart functions before the Data and Communications Company is set up in a couple of years (DCC is to handle data and communications to/from all smart meters for all suppliers), so some new rules are being introduced in January 2013.

That's not strictly correct and unfair to other suppliers.

All suppliers have been allowed to run trials, the question is whether they are compatible with each other and if the meters are to the required standards.

Some suppliers will not accept customers into fixed trials and since there was no detailed standard, suppliers were told to "dumb down" the meter.

The OP states they cannot be billed on this smart meter. This will be because the data sent to the supplier which their Meter Operator had from yours, is not part of their smart trial agreements with their Meter Operator.

Its Bgas that should have "dumbed down" the metet with their Meter Operator so that the meter appears as a standard one.

Whilst the meter can be read as normal, the Meter Operator is not obliged to support smart metering outside of their contract (in trialling, seperate Meter Operators have also sometimes been contracted) and they will send it to the supplier for correction.

So, the customer can't get a bill because Bgas haven't done what they should. It keeps happening on this board (and its known in the industry) which suggests there is a process problem.

Perhaps via this board and you feedback, it will get resolved?

I understand from customers caught in this trap, that they had not been made aware if this when agreeing to have the meter fitted. This seems an issue with other suppliers as well, but the "dumbing down" by charging the use of data such as multiple registers, should be done without impact to the customer.

It could of course be a timing thing due to backlogs within the supplier or their Meter Operator, but I think the supplier should ensure this does not occur as the loss process gives very clear timescales for achieving the change.

Terrylw1

British_Gas_company_representative wrote: »

Hello Isabelle,

sorry to hear that you've left us! Macman, TerryLw1 and Sacsquacco are right: you don't need to have the smart meter replaced. Meter readings can be read manually - as with a standard meter - while your supplier develops systems to support smart functionality.

Ofgem would like customers to be able to switch supplier AND keep the smart functions before the Data and Communications Company is set up in a couple of years (DCC is to handle data and communications to/from all smart meters for all suppliers), so some new rules are being introduced in January 2013.

Any response to this issue? Bgas may need to help their former customer here.

British_Gas

Terrylw1 wrote: »

That's not strictly correct and unfair to other suppliers.

All suppliers have been allowed to run trials, the question is whether they are compatible with each other and if the meters are to the required standards.

Some suppliers will not accept customers into fixed trials and since there was no detailed standard, suppliers were told to "dumb down" the meter.

The OP states they cannot be billed on this smart meter. This will be because the data sent to the supplier which their Meter Operator had from yours, is not part of their smart trial agreements with their Meter Operator.

Its Bgas that should have "dumbed down" the metet with their Meter Operator so that the meter appears as a standard one.

Whilst the meter can be read as normal, the Meter Operator is not obliged to support smart metering outside of their contract (in trialling, seperate Meter Operators have also sometimes been contracted) and they will send it to the supplier for correction.

So, the customer can't get a bill because Bgas haven't done what they should. It keeps happening on this board (and its known in the industry) which suggests there is a process problem.

Perhaps via this board and you feedback, it will get resolved?

I understand from customers caught in this trap, that they had not been made aware if this when agreeing to have the meter fitted. This seems an issue with other suppliers as well, but the "dumbing down" by charging the use of data such as multiple registers, should be done without impact to the customer.

It could of course be a timing thing due to backlogs within the supplier or their Meter Operator, but I think the supplier should ensure this does not occur as the loss process gives very clear timescales for achieving the change.

Hello Terrylw1,

Thank you again for the opportunity to engage in a constructive debate, and let me try to provide a response to the points you’re raising.

You mention that my previous post is “not strictly correct and unfair to other suppliers.” This was certainly not our intention. British Gas is in agreement with Government on the benefits of smart meters and have rolled them out before others to benefit our customers. Other suppliers will be able to support our meters but their smart programmes haven’t necessarily developed to that stage yet.

“All suppliers have been allowed to run trials; the question is whether they are compatible with each other and if the meters are to the required standards.” British Gas:There is no required standard (other than those for accuracy of metering equipment that apply to conventional and smart meters). The point is simple: the meter has a register that anyone can read; therefore it is fully interoperable in ‘dumb’ mode. The additional smart functions do not have to be used.

“Some suppliers will not accept customers into fixed trials and since there was no detailed standard, suppliers were told to "dumb down" the meter.”British Gas:Trials are run by suppliers for their own customers. Changing supplier simply means that they are no longer part of that trial. When British Gas loses a customer with smart metering, the tariff information is removed and the remote communications are turned off. It’s that simple!

“The OP states they cannot be billed on this smart meter. This will be because the data sent to the supplier which their Meter Operator had from yours, is not part of their smart trial agreements with their Meter Operator.” British Gas:The ‘data’ is a change of supplier reading and is sent by our metering agent to theirs. There is no ‘smart trial agreement’ in place or needed; it’s just a meter reading.

“Its Bgas that should have "dumbed down" the meter with their Meter Operator so that the meter appears as a standard one.” British Gas:We’re already doing this as part of our standard process, so this must also be the case for Isabelle.

“Whilst the meter can be read as normal, the Meter Operator is not obliged to support smart metering outside of their contract (in trialling, separate Meter Operators have also sometimes been contracted) and they will send it to the supplier for correction.” British Gas:Smart meters are more expensive. If the customer changes supplier the additional cost of the smart meter is borne by British Gas. All other suppliers pay the same amount to use the meter as they would if it were a standard ‘dumb’ model. We do this to ensure that there are no barriers to customers being able to change supplier. Come January, we’ll be offering a service that will allow customers to maintain full smart functionality when they switch supplier, but it’s up to the new supplier to take up this service. If the customer wishes to switch and maintain smart functionality the new supplier might be able to do it if customer requests itand they have adapted their systems and processes to receive readings from smart metering .

“So, the customer can't get a bill because Bgas haven't done what they should. It keeps happening on this board (and its known in the industry) which suggests there is a process problem.” BG Rep:I am afraid this is untrue. The customer can be billed but it will be based on reads they submit online or by meter readers getting a physical read.

“I understand from customers caught in this trap, that they had not been made aware if this when agreeing to have the meter fitted.”British Gas:Prior to all smart installations British Gas explains to customers what the smart meter is, what the benefits are, and that if they change supplier some of those additional functions might be lost. None of this will not affect their ability to change supplier. We carefully explain these points during each appointment call.

“Perhaps via this board and you feedback, it will get resolved?” British Gas:I hope these answers are helpful J. We’re committed to improve the way consumers use their energy across the country; and Terrylw1 - as you’re obviously knowledgeable in the smart metering field - it would be useful for everybody to know whether you work in the utility industry too and learn more about your official view (or that of your company)?

Best,

British Gas Representative

Terrylw1

British_Gas_company_representative wrote: »

Hello Terrylw1,

Thank you again for the opportunity to engage in a constructive debate, and let me try to provide a response to the points you’re raising.

You mention that my previous post is “not strictly correct and unfair to other suppliers.” This was certainly not our intention. British Gas is in agreement with Government on the benefits of smart meters and have rolled them out before others to benefit our customers. Other suppliers will be able to support our meters but their smart programmes haven’t necessarily developed to that stage yet.

T - are you are aware of every other suppliers progress?

“All suppliers have been allowed to run trials; the question is whether they are compatible with each other and if the meters are to the required standards.” British Gas:There is no required standard (other than those for accuracy of metering equipment that apply to conventional and smart meters). The point is simple: the meter has a register that anyone can read; therefore it is fully interoperable in ‘dumb’ mode. The additional smart functions do not have to be used.

T - in the case of some smart trials, the number of registers used to record do not match to the Standard Settlement Code (SSC) held in Market Domain Data (MDD). Suppliers, under agreement, have "dumbed down" the meter to operate the correct number of settlement registers in the Meter Operators records, this triggering an update.

“Some suppliers will not accept customers into fixed trials and since there was no detailed standard, suppliers were told to "dumb down" the meter.”British Gas:Trials are run by suppliers for their own customers. Changing supplier simply means that they are no longer part of that trial. When British Gas loses a customer with smart metering, the tariff information is removed and the remote communications are turned off. It’s that simple!

T - per my point above, that's not the always the case, which means you are not aware of the actions of all suppliers in the trials, hence you can't judge their progress. In this case EDF are stating that they can't accept this customer, the root cause for this response can be the fact the meter details that the old suppliers Meter Operator sent the meter as "smart" to the new one. No contract for taking smart beyond the fixed trial pot, means this switch stops. If it is the settlement registers, it can be "dumbed down" to allow the supplier to handle it, but its the MOP & DC that would also be stating this. This is my point and until the OP provides more info, I'm not sure if it is the case. It could be the new supplier has made a mistake or Bgas have in some way so the OP may need your assistance.

“The OP states they cannot be billed on this smart meter. This will be because the data sent to the supplier which their Meter Operator had from yours, is not part of their smart trial agreements with their Meter Operator.” British Gas:The ‘data’ is a change of supplier reading and is sent by our metering agent to theirs. There is no ‘smart trial agreement’ in place or needed; it’s just a meter reading.

T - that's incorrect. The new Data Collector for the new supplier takes the gearing history that your Data Collector sends to them and validates or fails it. This is why customers are told to provide their switch reading to their new supplier. If you send it in via your side, it isn't a switch reading at that but can be used by the new Data Collector in validation but they may not use it as a switch read.

“Its Bgas that should have "dumbed down" the meter with their Meter Operator so that the meter appears as a standard one.” British Gas:We’re already doing this as part of our standard process, so this must also be the case for Isabelle.

T - I don't doubt that but I am suggesting that the OP may need your help if the "dumbing down" process impacts the data produced in the D0150 to the new Meter Operator, supplier and Data Collector. It could of course be an EDF misunderstanding but without a detailed understanding of your Metet Operator's data in relation to MDD, its not possible to rule out a Bgas issue.

“Whilst the meter can be read as normal, the Meter Operator is not obliged to support smart metering outside of their contract (in trialling, separate Meter Operators have also sometimes been contracted) and they will send it to the supplier for correction.” British Gas:Smart meters are more expensive. If the customer changes supplier the additional cost of the smart meter is borne by British Gas. All other suppliers pay the same amount to use the meter as they would if it were a standard ‘dumb’ model. We do this to ensure that there are no barriers to customers being able to change supplier. Come January, we’ll be offering a service that will allow customers to maintain full smart functionality when they switch supplier, but it’s up to the new supplier to take up this service. If the customer wishes to switch and maintain smart functionality the new supplier might be able to do it if customer requests itand they have adapted their systems and processes to receive readings from smart metering .

T - so, Bgas are paying a rental charge beyond the contract the new supplier has in place with the Meter Asset Provider? How do you control this since the new supplier may change the meter later hence your additional rental is no longer required? How do you know what the supplier is paying thus bearing the cost?

“So, the customer can't get a bill because Bgas haven't done what they should. It keeps happening on this board (and its known in the industry) which suggests there is a process problem.” BG Rep:I am afraid this is untrue. The customer can be billed but it will be based on reads they submit online or by meter readers getting a physical read.

T - this depends on your data held in the Meter Operators side and how it compares to MDD. Until this is known and the OP offers further comment, it's unknown what the issue is.

“I understand from customers caught in this trap, that they had not been made aware if this when agreeing to have the meter fitted.”British Gas:Prior to all smart installations British Gas explains to customers what the smart meter is, what the benefits are, and that if they change supplier some of those additional functions might be lost. None of this will not affect their ability to change supplier. We carefully explain these points during each appointment call.

T - that's good to know. Some customers have reported that they were unaware they would lose the functionality, but this is also true for other suppliers.

“Perhaps via this board and you feedback, it will get resolved?” British Gas:I hope these answers are helpful J. We’re committed to improve the way consumers use their energy across the country; and Terrylw1 - as you’re obviously knowledgeable in the smart metering field - it would be useful for everybody to know whether you work in the utility industry too and learn more about your official view (or that of your company)?

T - I have provided my views on all posts I reply to hoping to assist the poster in dealing with their problems. I bumped this because the previous response from Bgas did not either provide a detailed response to help the OP or to ask them to make contact. The OP is stuck between suppliers giving opposing views and without detail or support, the customer doesn't know whether you or EDF are correct.

In terms of the rest, I don't see that as relevant.

Best,

British Gas Representative

Response added below each point.

As said, the OP needs guidance.

Its good to see some detailed responses as it can be used in later searches.

Regards