Beaten By ESA Gobbledygook Timescale

James123_2

Hi
I'm currently considering appealing the decision to place me in the WRAG group. This was done without a medical. However, I'm having problems getting my head around the timescale for doing this. I had thought that I would have an extra two weeks to appeal/ask for a reconsideration as I asked for a copy of my medical report - I now have my ESA85A. But the GL4 form seems to be confusing on this front - in the last paragraph on page 8. I've copied the offending piece below. Can anyone clarify this? Not even Macmillan Welfare could unpick it.



If you asked for a written statement of reasons, we will extend the one month time limit as follows:
If the office sent you the statement within the time limit, we will extend by 14 days.
If the office sent you the statement after the time limit, we will extend the time time limit by 14 days from the date on the statement.
BUT!
If you asked for a written or verbal explanation first, you WILL STILL ONLY GET ONE MONTH FROM THE DATE FROM THE DECISION letter to ask the office to reconsider.
(Surely everyone asks for a written statement anyway ..... what does this mean?) I would ring DWP but they often contradict themselves!)
Sorry this is so long.
AND THANK YOU ALL.

James123_2

Does the wording of 'if you asked for a written or verbal explanation first' actually mean ....
'if you asked for a written or verbal explanation at the time of your medical taking place?'
Thank you for your patience.

Muttleythefrog

The issue of Statement of reasons seems a complicated one. The DWP doesn't seem to have much of a clue as to what this constitutes or at least they fail to convey to customers what such is or even if it exists or could be created. In following the cases of many people I still haven't a clue about the formalities of SOR and when I've requested such I've received nonsense from the operator on the phone. The wording of the letter you have received I agree does seem contradictory.. it seems to suggest you get 2 weeks extra if you request SOR except if you request the SOR first... nonsensical to me since surely the timing of requesting a SOR is going to be simply after a decision.. the reference to 'first' I agree needs explanation... unless they regard 'explanation' as different to SOR.

If you've got hold of the ESA85A then in effect this may be as good as any statement of reasons... it's likely they simply rubber stamped that ATOS HC advices. I presume that ESA85A recommends WRAG and lists the applicable descriptors. Unless you have some issue over timing (i.e. month has passed) then do not delay in sending in appeal request. Get that in and if necessary state you'll supply further details in due course... it'll take weeks or maybe longer for the DWP to reconsider their decision quite probably.. and then months beyond that for appeal tribunal if they do not change their decision.

Your argument will be a fairly simple one... that Support Group criteria is met because Support Group descriptor(s) x apply. Explain why they apply and try to get supporting medical evidence to reaffirm so.

James123_2

Thanks for the great reply Muttley - and the obvious time you took over this. It was much appreciated.
It took a lot of chasing to get my ESA85A so I am now within days of the four week deadline. So, I really do need the 'extra' two weeks. So, like you, I'm still confused on this one. I love the 'Clear English Standard Award' on this leaflet btw!!!
Thanks for wading through what was a very long post.

James123_2

PS
I was only sent my ESA85A. I assume that this constitutes a 'Statement of Reasons' document. This is very confusing. I used to teach English, but the DWP literature has me stumped!

Muttleythefrog

James123 wrote: »

Thanks for the great reply Muttley - and the obvious time you took over this. It was much appreciated.
It took a lot of chasing to get my ESA85A so I am now within days of the four week deadline. So, I really do need the 'extra' two weeks. So, like you, I'm still confused on this one. I love the 'Clear English Standard Award' on this leaflet btw!!!
Thanks for wading through what was a very long post.

No worries. I definitely then would try to get appeal request in ASAP (assuming you think you have a case for Support group of course). The DWP admin of ESA is appalling... try to keep things as simple for them as possible otherwise it'll be you who ends up on the wrong end of their failings. You could state in appeal request that you desire to have statement of reasons and are taking advice from a charity regarding your appeal... and that in due course more details of appeal will be given and possibly evidence too.

ETA. It is possible that the DWP do regard the ESA85A as effectively their SOR. Some suggestion on MSE that SORs as such may only be constructed where person is turned down for ESA.

Cpt.Scarlet

Extract from the current version of the GL24 available on DirectGov

Will you still reconsider a decision if I just ask for a statement of reasons?
[FONT=FS Me,FS Me][/FONT]
[FONT=FS Me,FS Me][FONT=FS Me,FS Me]Yes. However, if the explanation was face to face or over the phone, you will still only have one month from the date on the decision letter to ask the office to reconsider their decision – not one month from the date you spoke to us. [/FONT]

[FONT=FS Me,FS Me]If you request a written statement of reasons for the decision within one month of the decision letter, the time limit for asking for a reconsideration will be extended. [The date by which you must ask us to reconsider the decision will be explained when we send you the written statement of reasons].[/FONT]


[/FONT]

James123_2

Cpt.Scarlet wrote: »

Extract from the current version of the GL24 available on DirectGov

Will you still reconsider a decision if I just ask for a statement of reasons?
[FONT=FS Me,FS Me][/FONT]
[FONT=FS Me,FS Me][FONT=FS Me,FS Me]Yes. However, if the explanation was face to face or over the phone, you will still only have one month from the date on the decision letter to ask the office to reconsider their decision – not one month from the date you spoke to us. [/FONT]

[FONT=FS Me,FS Me]If you request a written statement of reasons for the decision within one month of the decision letter, the time limit for asking for a reconsideration will be extended. [The date by which you must ask us to reconsider the decision will be explained when we send you the written statement of reasons].[/FONT]


[/FONT]

Thank you. I think I'm clear on this. I did write with the request, but this was lost in DWP's system. So, I lost two weeks awaiting the written statement. I requested this by phone as a last resort. So, unless I'm missing something, I don't have the extra two weeks. I certainly don't have a letter stating a new deadline for any reconsideration or appeal. All I received was the appeal form, a compliments slip and the ESA85A. My written and verbal (recorded by me on phone) request was for the written statement of reasons. I have not requested a formal appeal as yet.
Appreciate your help here. I think I'm reasonably (ish) intelligent, but this process seems to be very confusing.

James123_2

Right - so there's a newer version of the GL24 than the one they sent me? I've found one which is Feb this year. The one I was sent by DWP is April 2010. It's definitely a little different.
Thanks - you're a great help!

http://www.direct.gov.uk/prod_consum_dg/groups/dg_digitalassets/@dg/@en/@benefits/documents/digitalasset/dg_201702.pdf

Unfortunately, the DWP site still carries the old leaflet!

Muttleythefrog

Many things about ESA defy intelligent people..lol. Definitely use the newest version of the form... it was a sacking offence in a recent job of mine to use an outdated quality controlled document... the DWP don't probably don't operate to any such standards. From the quote given above by Scarlet I would deduce.. and it does make sense... that if you request explanation of their decision and get it over the phone or in person then this won't be classified as a written statement of reasons and therefore won't give extra 2 weeks to make reconsideration or appeal request. If you request SOR using any method then it should at least increase such time by 2 weeks... however in your circumstances I would work on the assumption no such document exists or ever will exist and therefore that your request in effect does not exist either.

James123_2

Thanks again Mutley - and Cpt Scarlett. Between the two of you I seem to have the answer I was looking for. IF the DWP had issued the correct form, not lost my initial request letter and then not consistently given inconsistent advice then the need for such a post would not be necessary. If this is a sign of what I might have to endure in terms of a review/appeal, then I am tempted to accept the WRAG decision and leave ESA in 12 months. The award states that a return to work would be in 18 months, so there would seem little likelihood that they'll bother me with an early review if I don't trouble them with an appeal. I have already forwarded consultant letters which state that I only have very limited use of hands and feet due to prolonged chemotherapy treatment. (This is written with voice software) So, I already feel battle-weary! I will sleep on it. THANKS SO MUCH - THIS SITE IS WONDERFUL.