Is cash classed as goods?

savercol

I have received a PCN whilst parked for five minutes in a loading bay collecting shop takings. I've appealed but been told cash or shop takings are not classed as goods. Anyone help me here. I have no option other than to park in a loading bay or block traffic on a busy main road. As of this Sunday I will have to block the road.

Coupon-mad

savercol wrote: »

I have received a PCN whilst parked for five minutes in a loading bay collecting shop takings. I've appealed but been told cash or shop takings are not classed as goods. Anyone help me here. I have no option other than to park in a loading bay or block traffic on a busy main road. As of this Sunday I will have to block the road.

Well they are classed as goods!

Here's just one Council's definition which is about right, although forget the H for Heavy as that's not actually true. Could also be any items which are unwieldy, fragile, fiddly to carry, multiples of items or valuable items like money. It is even exempt to take/collect letter packets to or from a Post Office so the 'heavy' bit can be taken with a pinch of salt!

http://www.york.gov.uk/transport/Parking/tickets/09-loading/

Is this a Council? They are wrong but then they probably know that and are just trying to bluff you and use the 'bribe' of the discounted penalty. Many Councils just refuse initial appeal routinely even when you have a good case. Why? Money.

The only difficulty might be if this is a bay with a specific 'Goods Vehicles Loading Only' sign, if yours isn't a Goods Vehicle. But it's still appealable and DEFINITELY OK for you to get takings if it's an ordinary 'LOADING ONLY' bay. That's exactly the sort of thing those bays are there for!

You will have to appeal further, so get pepipoo's help. Post here with pics of the front and back of the PCN and a picture of the lines and signs at the bay:

http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showforum=30

Next time you can still park in that loading bay or did you know that you could also legitimately park on an adjacent single or double yellow (as long as there are no yellow kerb blips as well, which inidicate no loading). Loading/unloading is allowed on that basis as long as it's to or from adjacent premises and generally takes up to 20 mins and is continuous - with no other non-exempt activity (no loo break, cup of tea or shopping!).

Why not draw up a sign saying 'business collecting goods from xxxxxx' and put it in your windscreen when you park there. Also leave your hazard lights on. Gives more evidence to a passing CEO that there may actually be loading/unloading occurring and should stop too many more silly PCNs.

If you get more, appeal them all with pepipoo's help but, as you have found, generally you'll need to forget the bribe, put up with the template 'computer says no' first reply and move on the the formal appeal stage.

savercol

The PCN was issued by Brighton Council
Quote.
I can confirm as requested that the sums of money that the CEO witnessed you collecting from your place of business would not be considered loading and unloading. The CEO advised you of this at the time. I also advised in my response the following:
The purpose of loading bays is to aide businesses with deliveries and collection of stock that is essential for the running of that company. Whilst loading activity can take place that is not related to a business, this must be in relation to items that are heavy and cumbersome, plus the activity must still be continuous.
The CEO notes match your almost identically. They explain that a large number of £20 notes were brought to the vehicle and that you were advised again that this was not considered loading as the items needed to be heavy, bulky or cumbersome. You were advised to move and did not which is why a PCN was issued.
Loading / Unloading is defined as the movement of goods to or from a vehicle. The precise nature of the goods are not specified by the traffic orders however there is a general understanding that the vehicle must be necessary and not merely convenient to the task being performed. For this reason the generally accepted terms are that: goods should be heavy, bulky or must be of a type that cannot easily be carried by one person in one trip.
The CEO considered the money you were carrying not to be heavy or cumbersome and was clearly of a type that could easily be carried by one person in one trip.

So the warden admits I was there for the absolute minimum time required and observed the large sum of cash but still booked me.
My Mother was robbed of takings and I have no intention of it happening to me.

SodG24

Good old Brighton Council !!! Appeal straight away and if necessary take it as far as adjudication. I did and won but be warned their letters get ever more threatening and they took TWO employees to the adjudicators meeting.

Coupon-mad

SodG24 wrote: »

Good old Brighton Council !!! Appeal straight away and if necessary take it as far as adjudication. I did and won but be warned their letters get ever more threatening and they took TWO employees to the adjudicators meeting.

Yay, Brighton! :rotfl:

@savercol, three of us regulars on here are from Brighton area as well! Myself, SodG24 above, and ManxRed are all mad Albion fans and PCN haters!

:T

Get yourself over to pepipoo, post a new topic with pics as stated above. BH Council's definition of 'goods' is wrong - the one on the link is better as you can see at York they understand the business delivery/collection issue is different. Clearly collecting takings is OK as you would not want to have to park miles away (which in Brighton you'd have to, if you wanted to find a P&D space - and why should you when loading large quantities of cash?!). And there are key cases which pepipoo can probably quote, to help you win this.

It's a daft PCN but you may have to go to adjudication to win it. Let us know in the end, when you do!

savercol

SodG24 (3-1 against the euro champs!) & Coupon-mad.
Thanks for the reply. I'm after some sort of legal paper stating what is classed as goods. The council only say
"there is a general understanding that the vehicle must be necessary and not merely convenient to the task being performed. For this reason the generally accepted terms are that: goods should be heavy, bulky or must be of a type that cannot easily be carried by one person in one trip."
The vehicle used was my car. It had been parked in a multi storey all day. I have a van, long wheel base hi top transit, but had I driven it to work it would not fit into the multi storey.
I don't intend paying and will fight this all the way. But as mentioned, £35 is cheaper than the cost of fighting it with days off etc.

Coupon-mad

savercol wrote: »

SodG24 (3-1 against the euro champs!) & Coupon-mad.
Thanks for the reply. I'm after some sort of legal paper stating what is classed as goods. The council only say
"there is a general understanding that the vehicle must be necessary and not merely convenient to the task being performed. For this reason the generally accepted terms are that: goods should be heavy, bulky or must be of a type that cannot easily be carried by one person in one trip."
The vehicle used was my car. It had been parked in a multi storey all day. I have a van, long wheel base hi top transit, but had I driven it to work it would not fit into the multi storey.
I don't intend paying and will fight this all the way. But as mentioned, £35 is cheaper than the cost of fighting it with days off etc.

What you need is key cases which have won at adjudication on that basis, where the adjudicator has stated what goods can be defined as. Cases where someone was loading money or small valuables like jewellery would be good and I am sure there are some. Does not have to be Brighton.

Pepipoo should be able to cite some.


Seagulls!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

savercol

http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=72348