Invisbile water leak

blindman

Hi

I'm assuming I have a leak somewhere as:

1. In our downstairs toilet the sink drain is making a hissing noise which is quite noticeable.

2. With no water running in the house the outside water meter little cog is slowly spinning and the numbers eventually increase

3. When I turn off the stop c*ck in the house the water meter stops as does the hissing from the sink -Though I do have to run the tap in there When it stops flowing the hissing stops.

4. There is no obvious water damage (on anywhere in the toilet nor what would seem to be the route into the toilet.

5. My water meter usage is about 30 cu m per 6 months-we're up to amount now and there's two months to go before the next reading.

6. Of the three toilets only one has an internal overflow system into the bowl and I've checked it's fine (Food colouring in the header tank-bowl water stays clear).
Did the same test to the other two-no problems.

7. If I turn of the supply to both the dishwasher and washing machine the noise persists (As I thought it would).



So the question is:

1. Correct assumption or is there another thing I can check?
We have a combi boiler (I assume that is connected to the main supply-but it's not overflowing as far as I can tell-the overflow runs directly into the waste pipe of the utility sink)

2. How the heck do I find where the pipes run to this sink ?

3. Pipes go into the (chipboard) floor so I assume they run in a small gap under the house?

The noise is greatest at the downstairs toilet sink and then less so in the utility room which looks like the next logical run to the toilet.

If you can imagine the layout-It's like an "L" shape

The mains water coming in at the top of the L, (Kitchen sink)
The utility room is at the bottom corner of the L
The toilet is at the end of the right angle of the L-Though its not a straight line

(If I can draw it with syntax I'll give it a go next post )

I asssume the leak is between the toilet and util room.?

Just need to determine where the pirpes run so I'm not diggin up too much flooring


Any ideas??

Will my house insurance cover the work to find and repair this?

mart.vader

From what you say, its extremely likely that you have a leak.

At your No 3, you have proved that the leak is after the stopc0ck.
At your No 7. you have eliminated any possibility that the leak is on the branch to the W/M or D/W.

Most Water Co's give a once only "Leak Allowance" against increased costs, incurred as a result of your leak.

Why not call them and ask for a leak technician to give his estimate of where the leak is most likely to be? My guess is under your toilet floor.

If the floor is really chipboard, and it gets wet, it will swell and disintegrate.

As to insurance, maybe, maybe not, you will have to enquire.

blindman

Thanks for the reply.

The question is how would the pipes be run?

Looking at the sketch-basically the toilet is an "add on" to a square floor plan so the util room outside wall lines up with the internal toilet wall.

Sketch doesn't work! Will try to get some sort of diagram :eek:

.......................................................O !........... Util room
.......................................................U !
.......................................................T !
.......................................................S !
........................................................I !
.......................................................D !...+

---

Assumed mains water from kitchen
.......................................................E ! ...+
..........................................................! ..+
..........................................................!..+[1]
......................................................... ! ..+
!!!!!!!!Outside Wall!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:-+-:-:-:-:-:-:-:-:-:-Util room internal wall
...................Toilet+++++++[A]++++++|++!+_+ junction to Toilet??
......................................................|.. ! ...+
......................................................|.. ! ...+.........Space understairs
......................................................|.. ! ...+
..................................................|++!++| junction to sink??
......................................................|... !
..................................................Sink... !


I would assume
1 the pipe runs internally all the way ( noted by the '+++')
2 Pipes run from the util room would be as per the diag.


[1] Feed from util room runs under floor to space under stairs then

Either

It feeds direct to the actual toilet [A]and there's a branch off to the sink


Or it travels further in the space under stairs then feeds direct to sink and then on to the toilet?

I'm assuming the first option is the neatest?

Am I on the right lines or is there another way?

mart.vader

You're right - sketch doesn't work !

You know that the leak is after the stopc0ck in the house, that you closed, as it stops the hissing. It would be a very odd set-up if the pipes run EXternally after that point.

You can rip up the floor in your toilet and, as you have other toilets, you can repair it, at your convenience. (pun intended)

To further locate the leak, you could fit another stop-valve under the stairs, if it stops the hissing, then you know the leak is further along. You can make yourself a "listening stick" out of a long screwdriver, or the like. Put one end on the pipe, the other end against your ear - stick your finger in your other ear, it makes the sound clearer.

I can't visualise the set-up, but you can ask yourself, "What route could the pipe take from, where you know it is, to get water to the basin/toilet". i.e. under floor, through ceiling, under stairs, through wall, etc.

blindman

Thanks for the reply-Thought my colourful version would be better!

Basically what I'm trying to determine is:

Is it standard practice to branch off the main feed to the toilet and then branch off that to the sink-As below

This would mean more pipeage under the toilet floor so good chance of the leak being there?

......................................................... ! .+
!!!!!!!!Outside Wall!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:-+-:-:-:-:-:-Util internal wall
...................Toilet+++++++[A]+++++++++!++
......................................................+.. !
......................................................+.. !
......................................................+.. !
...................................................+...!
......................................................+...!
..................................................Sink...!


OR
Is this an option?
The main feed effectively has two branches from it so I start looking under the stairs floor first?

..........................................................!..+[1]
......................................................... ! ..+
!!!!!!!!Outside Wall!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:-.+-:-:-:Util room internal wall
...................Toilet+++++++[A]+++++++++!+++ junction to Toilet??
......................................................... ! ...+
......................................................... ! ...+.........Space understairs
..........................................................! ...+
................................................Sink.++!++| junction to sink??
..........................................................!
..........................................................!

Like the idea of the stopc0ck upstream to isolate feed to toilet.

Oldsoak

A a rule the cold feed will run from the stop !!!! to the end of the run, so if the furthest water use is a toilet in a cloak room, that is where it will stop (probably). Any sinks basins or washing machine points will be 'T' eed off that run. The hissing will lessen or stop if the water is flowing because of demand. It will hiss again when the pressure in the pipe builds up again. It is not uncommon for solder to have tiny faults in it that only rupture after several days/weeks/months or even years.
Unfortunately, taking a piece of flooring up may be your only option to find it unless the hiss is extremely pronounced in one of the rooms.
Hope this helps. Good luck

blindman

Oldsoak wrote: »

A a rule the cold feed will run from the stop !!!! to the end of the run, so if the furthest water use is a toilet in a cloak room, that is where it will stop (probably). Any sinks basins or washing machine points will be 'T' eed off that run. The hissing will lessen or stop if the water is flowing because of demand. It will hiss again when the pressure in the pipe builds up again. It is not uncommon for solder to have tiny faults in it that only rupture after several days/weeks/months or even years.
Unfortunately, taking a piece of flooring up may be your only option to find it unless the hiss is extremely pronounced in one of the rooms.
Hope this helps. Good luck

The hiss is very pronounced in the basin in the downstairs toilet, so I'm 99% certain the mains feed pipe to the sink is the problem.

I'm hoping this is T'eed off the feed to the toilet as per my first diag.
This downstairs loo has been there (and not disturbed) since the house was built-about 25 years ago-Needs a facelift anyway

Biggest problem is the floor-whilst at least it's not concrete it looks like one huge sheet of chipboard. So knowing where to start cutting is my first problem.

Thanks for both replies.