Dispatches and Panorama programmes about Atos.

Invalidation

rogerblack wrote: »

To return to a theme I've gone on about before.
ATOS is not the sole, or even major problem in the system.
The regulations and procedures ATOS have to follow to determine someones fitness for work is the large part of it.
Including the limited time they have.

ATOS 'doctors' (health care professionals) have in my experience been more competent with the way they deal with my case than the DWP and tribunals service.

Too many people are blaming ATOS for things they have no control over whatsoever.
For example, people with cancer who are not likely to die within 6 months, and who are not undergoing injectable chemotherapy are unlikely to qualify for ESA.
This is not ATOSs fault, but that of the government who passed the regulations.

I understand that some people with cancer may be quite fit to work, the above is one example where ATOS lacks discretion as to how reasonable it is to expect someone to work.

ATOS have been commissioned solely to tick the boxes the government has supplied.

Never took you as an apologist for ATOS?.
"Ve are only obeying orders" is the mantra isnt it? Seems Ive heard that excuse somewhere before?

There are generally 2 ways to do any job and ATOS chooses to do it and prioritise their profits.
It has been shown many times here that they will falsify their questionnaire answers, You support those ideals?

Sorry but thats the way I see it.

Invalidation

rogerblack wrote: »

Qualifications may be perfectly valid, and meaningful, and not be adequate to allow the person to practice in their chosen speciality without essentially going back to school for years to get the proper certificates.

This does not mean they are not qualified.

Yes, it does. If their qualifications are not recognised in the UK they are Unqualified.

In many ways, the qualification is pretty much a red herring.
The HCPs are not required to have specific knowledge of the conditions that the claimant has.

No but they are expected by the general public to be honest, which it is becomming abundantly clear, some of them arent

This is an unfortunate weakness of the legislation.
The more qualified person may not be the best.

Really? You need a brain operation OK, You want the operation to be performed by a Chiropractor? Wake up man!.

Clearly, if you have a given condition, and happen to be seen by a specialist in that area, that's optimum.

No Thats a NECESSITY !

But your average highly skilled cardiac surgeon who is doing some work for ATOS while a hand injury heals may be considerably less familiar with the interplay of mental and physical conditions than some nurses.

And conversely an unqualified nurse would never be able to fully understand the implications and long term problems of someone with a serious back condition, Thank you.

Sure, the surgeon would be great if you have a heart issue, but not so much for many other things, as he may be many years away from his training in those fields.

As would the Nurse.

krisskross

Surely it isn't the condition that matters rather the effect that condition has on a person's ability to function?

After all 3 people could have a diagnosis of MS for instance. One of the three could be wheelchair bound, another could have the occasional relapse whilst the third could display no debilitating symptoms for many years.

I'll use my own husband as an example. He was diagnosed with cancer last year, had surgery and is being followed up at 4 monthly intervals. He was diagnosed last month as having leukaemia. Sounds dreadful, terminal etc but neither of these conditions actually affect his day to day activity or have decreased his capabilities. The Rheumatoid Arthritis however is a bu**er! It is not the disease itself but the effect the disease progression has that is important. You do not need a consultant or specialist at a work capability assessment.

schrodie

Invalidation wrote: »

Never took you as an apologist for ATOS?.
"Ve are only obeying orders" is the mantra isnt it? Seems Ive heard that excuse somewhere before?

I believe it's called the Nuremberg defence!

Invalidation wrote: »

There are generally 2 ways to do any job and ATOS chooses to do it and prioritise their profits.
It has been shown many times here that they will falsify their questionnaire answers, You support those ideals?

Sorry but thats the way I see it.

This is just one example of a far wider practice! Hence the reluctance of Atos to allow recording of the assessments by being obstructive and support for Atos's behaviour from Grayling and Irritable Duncan-Smith.

BBC

However it appears that falsifying an official government document carries no penalty hence Atos and their "henchpersons" are laughing all the way to the bank at the taxpayers' expense.

speedfreek1000

Invalidation wrote: »

Never took you as an apologist for ATOS?.
"Ve are only obeying orders" is the mantra isnt it? Seems Ive heard that excuse somewhere before?

There are generally 2 ways to do any job and ATOS chooses to do it and prioritise their profits.
It has been shown many times here that they will falsify their questionnaire answers, You support those ideals?

Sorry but thats the way I see it.

I think you've misunderstood?

Roger tends to explain things as they actually are rather than from the slanted default we hate ATOS/DWP.

Quite a few of us have realised that maybe, just maybe we are being manipulated into a view point whereby we no longer see the real issues. The fear and hate against ATOS and the DWP is their tool to keep our actions focused wholly and firmly on the wrong things.

To me ESA is an easy process now that holds no fear; Fill in form, fail WCA with 0 points, write appeal submission and get back pay 6 months plus later.

If that's the way it works (although I'm rather non plussed by it all), then I have to focus my efforts into working it to my advantage.

As an example the lack of serious specialty knowledge in my illness by the person conducting the WCA means their evidence can be easily discredited. It would be infinitely harder especially with mental health (which is an opinion that can vastly differs between two specialists based on their training) to argue my case otherwise.

Once you tame the beast you can then direct your efforts into some rather interesting gray legislative areas (there's lots of holes in these things) from which to mount effective challenges and attacks.

schrodie

speedfreek1000 wrote: »

I think you've misunderstood?



To me ESA is an easy process now that holds no fear; Fill in form, fail WCA with 0 points, write appeal submission and get back pay 6 months plus later.

For you et al that's fine but what about someone for example with MH issues who due to Atos's incompetence at carrying out the WCA properly has to wait several months for an appeal due to getting zero points, what are do they live on! A quick tour of Google will reveal this situation being far from uncommon. Then amazingly at appeal they're granted 15 points......a miracle, no just the appeal panel doing what Atos should have done in the first place...get it right.

The reality is is that Atos and the DWP hope that by giving people zero points they'll either loose all hope in ever claiming again and just go away or as has happened on several occasions die while waiting for an appeal!!

Chrysalis

I agree with the working condition comments. The attitude from those wielding the axe is backwards. Its an attitude of the those in need of help are scroungers and need a push to work, so they push by starting a sanction regime and negative propoganda.

Also remember the publicity on the young been made to work for free at tesco etc. They backed down on that but the rules were not changed for the WRAG part of ESA in that people in that group who have already been determined to have limited capability of work will possibly in future be made to do those work schemes of unpaid work to keep their financial support.

Some people probably can do limited work in special conditions, however the sort of conditions such as the remploy are been abandoned. In my view the support needed has to be the following and they all key elements.

1 - Private companies employing sick people will need probably a incentive of the government such as tax breaks.
2 - They should not be allowed to discipline or sack people for poor attendance records due to sickness especially when the employee informs them in advance of the condition. Although in this case the employee is likely to not get employed.
3 - The public sector needs to be a key employer for theose with limited capability of work as the government has full power over the public sector. Its a nont for profit sector as well so doesnt have shareholders to worry about.
4 - Working from home type of work needs to promoted to businesses by government and this type of work is whats most likely to get people to try working.
5 - A guarantuee that if someone tries work but cannot do it they can get their previous benefits rienstated fast tracked without any new checks.
6 - Any work activity should be voluntary, extremely important. Mandated activity and frequest reassessments can and do cause health relapses.

speedfreek1000

schrodie wrote: »

For you et al that's fine but what about someone for example with MH issues who due to Atos's incompetence at carrying out the WCA properly has to wait several months for an appeal due to getting zero points, what are do they live on! A quick tour of Google will reveal this situation being far from uncommon. Then amazingly at appeal they're granted 15 points......a miracle, no just the appeal panel doing what Atos should have done in the first place...get it right.

Been waiting over 6 months now for my 2nd appeal to be listed. 1st one was won on recon after 6 months (you know when that special DWP DM team was fiddling the appeal stats just before tribunal listing 2011). Scored 0 point on both in under 15 minutes so....

schrodie wrote: »

The reality is is that Atos and the DWP hope that by giving people zero points they'll either loose all hope in ever claiming again and just go away or as has happened on several occasions die while waiting for an appeal!!

My very experienced Welfare Rights worker told me. You'll get ESA as you well exceed 15 points on the descriptors. Now you stand no chance whatsoever of passing the face to face WCA medical test as it's not designed for people with your problems. He told me not to worry about it as that's just the way it is! Application is solid and the appeal will be too so we'll win in the end.

Zero points is also the easiest to argue against as even a five year old can see the report produced is a load of carp. Since most folks use the ESA85s' deficiencies as a basis for appeal arguments the easier it is to discredit the freer your hand to get the tribunal to accept your evidence as fact!

Now given that I have anxiety/depression issues of quite some severity do you think his/my approach or yours would help me/others cope better?

I'll repeat and I'll keep repeating; you help somebody by demystifying the nasty process and giving them the information they need to overcome it successfully. Putting the fear of god up very vulnerable people is wrong! Especially if that fear is directed at a thing they have zero control over and acts as a distraction from the things that will win them the ESA they so rightly deserve.

Happy-??????_2

speedfreek1000 wrote: »

Been waiting over 6 months now for my 2nd appeal to be listed. 1st one was won on recon after 6 months (you know when that special DWP DM team was fiddling the appeal stats just before tribunal listing 2011). Scored 0 point on both in under 15 minutes so....



My very experienced Welfare Rights worker told me. You'll get ESA as you well exceed 15 points on the descriptors. Now you stand no chance whatsoever of passing the face to face WCA medical test as it's not designed for people with your problems. He told me not to worry about it as that's just the way it is! Application is solid and the appeal will be too so we'll win in the end.

Zero points is also the easiest to argue against as even a five year old can see the report produced is a load of carp. Since most folks use the ESA85s' deficiencies as a basis for appeal arguments the easier it is to discredit the freer your hand to get the tribunal to accept your evidence as fact!

Now given that I have anxiety/depression issues of quite some severity do you think his/my approach or yours would help me/others cope better?

I'll repeat and I'll keep repeating; you help somebody by demystifying the nasty process and giving them the information they need to overcome it successfully. Putting the fear of god up very vulnerable people is wrong! Especially if that fear is directed at a thing they have zero control over and acts as a distraction from the things that will win them the ESA they so rightly deserve.

I am new here but reading through this, I totally agree with speedfreak1000. I am also awaiting an appeal, which will be my third. I also receive zero points, but people do not receive zero money as someone earlier had mentioned, you still get assessment rates. I dont meet the criteria that is required by law/ATOS, not slinging dirt, just no point. I know I am ill and so just find the whole process a pain, but being ill is just the same, so we just do as the system requires. I am not trying to make light of anyone else's situation, however dont see the point of bashing ones head against a wall, when there is other ways.

Just a thought, Zero points for 960 tablets a month and Fentanyl patches 24/7.....makes you wonder??