ASHP. We've only gone and done it again!

TiredGeek

As some of you know we fitted an ASHP system back in 2009, and let's be generous and say it didn't go too well
Well we're sure some of you will think us insane, and after all the stress that's very possible TBH, but we've just finished the install of pretty much the same system...... but this time by a company that knows what it's doing!

It took a good few letters to the old company, thank you to those who helped, but we eventually got a refund in early 2012 of more than the original purchase price.
Not a profit, as the extra money had been spent many times over in modifications and ridiculous bills, so we eventually ended up about £3k out of pocket when all is added up. We can live with that, it was an education.

This time around there's a marked difference not only in the quality of installation but in the knowledge of the company that carried it out
Now I'm a bit anal about neat pipe work and wiring, but the attention to detail of the installation engineers made my work look untidy, to the point where they actually re did an electric meter mounting to better fit with the scheme.
They also put in the hours, first day - 0800 to 2230 (!), second and third days - 0800 to 1800.
I'm not going to embarrass them by name, the "heat pump guru" and his sidekick (LOL) know it is much appreciated

Misubishi has even supplied and fit it's own monitoring equipment to make sure everything is good this time around. Kudos to them for getting involved. It's a win win deal, they get monitoring data from a holiday home in the frozen north, we get a massive safety net if something goes a bit wonky It couldn't have worked out better for us.

I know someone, looking at you Cardew (;) no offence meant), is going to say about cost etc and how much we've spent and how much cheaper an oil system could have been. You're right. There's no denying it's a substantial investment, but for us, the alternatives didn't stack up.
Oil would have been dearer to run but cheaper to install, it would have been offset by interest on the money, all true.
But it's also much harder to get a reliable delivery service where the house is, very hard in bad weather if the oil is running low (the trucks might not get through), and it's easily stolen.
LPG - pah.
Biomass - worse problems with supply than oil.
We weighed up the options and decided that even if the ASHP system is no cheaper to run overall it still made sense to us and our particular needs.

I'll get a link to some photos sorted, too many to post on here directly.

Discuss

albyota

Well done tiredGeek, and well done to the installers, keep us all posted on the performance.

lovesgshp

Glad it all went well this time round

Cardew

TiredGeek wrote: »

Misubishi has even supplied and fit it's own monitoring equipment to make sure everything is good this time around. Kudos to them for getting involved. It's a win win deal, they get monitoring data from a holiday home in the frozen north, we get a massive safety net if something goes a bit wonky It couldn't have worked out better for us.

I know someone, looking at you Cardew (;) no offence meant), is going to say about cost etc and how much we've spent and how much cheaper an oil system could have been. You're right. There's no denying it's a substantial investment, but for us, the alternatives didn't stack up.
Oil would have been dearer to run but cheaper to install, it would have been offset by interest on the money, all true.

Hi,

Well done and full marks for perseverance!

For those who haven't followed the OP's saga, in 2009 he installed 2 Mitsubishi 14kW Ecodans in a house in the Scottish highlands, spending I believe £14,000, and the system turned out to be a disaster; and was ripped out?

Actually this latest thread graphically demonstrates what, IMO, are the major criticisms of ASHP systems.

Firstly that customers take 'pot luck' that their system will perform. The disasterous results of 29 systems in the EST trial of amply demonstrated that fact; and nothing has been published to show the situation has improved.

Manufacturers still sell their ASHPs to installers and if they get the installation wrong - tough; unless they spend 3 years like the OP threatening legal action etc.

Nice to see Mitsubishi getting involved with your installation, could that be because of the fuss you kicked up? and/or the publicity in threads on MSE?

My contention is that manufacturers should take responsibility for their equipment. As it is you are getting kit, and expertise, to monitor if the system will actually work as intended. The average customer doesn't get such priveleged treatment.

The second point which you have covered in your post is the cost of ASHPs. You haven't stated how much your(large) system costs - would £20,000 be a ball park figure?

An oil CH system would cost £6,000?? so a difference of £14,000 invested at 4% would produce an income of £560 to offset against higher running costs of oil.

Your access problems are surely atypical. My Sister in Law has a house in the highlands with oil CH. A 2,000litre top up in late autumn guards against any non-delivery during the winter.

Anyway it will be most interesting to see the results.

TiredGeek

Cardew wrote: »

Hi,

Well done and full marks for perseverance!

For those who haven't followed the OP's saga, in 2009 he installed 2 Mitsubishi 14kW Ecodans in a house in the Scottish highlands, spending I believe £14,000, and the system turned out to be a disaster; and was ripped out?
Yes, removed. All that was left was the radiators and associated pipes.

Actually this latest thread graphically demonstrates what, IMO, are the major criticisms of ASHP systems.

Firstly that customers take 'pot luck' that their system will perform. The disasterous results of 29 systems in the EST trial of amply demonstrated that fact; and nothing has been published to show the situation has improved.

Manufacturers still sell their ASHPs to installers and if they get the installation wrong - tough; unless they spend 3 years like the OP threatening legal action etc.
Taking

Nice to see Mitsubishi getting involved with your installation, could that be because of the fuss you kicked up? and/or the publicity in threads on MSE?
I don't think so, I think it was in recognition of the problems first time around and "an interesting site" for them to get data from. Whatever, works for both us and them

My contention is that manufacturers should take responsibility for their equipment. As it is you are getting kit, and expertise, to monitor if the system will actually work as intended. The average customer doesn't get such priveleged treatment.
True
The second point which you have covered in your post is the cost of ASHPs. You haven't stated how much your(large) system costs - would £20,000 be a ball park figure?
Not too far away but not quite that much
An oil CH system would cost £6,000?? so a difference of £14,000 invested at 4% would produce an income of £560 to offset against higher running costs of oil.
Oil for us came closer to £10k as we are near a river so have extra precautions to take, and we need a pretty large boiler. But yes, the lower costs would have resulted in an offset from interest for the extra cost of oil.

Your access problems are surely atypical. My Sister in Law has a house in the highlands with oil CH. A 2,000litre top up in late autumn guards against any non-delivery during the winter.
Because of the river, a big tank was out of the question. Theft in the area is also not unknown. I wouldn't like to have left 1000 litres of oil sitting there waiting for someone to notice and siphon it away

Anyway it will be most interesting to see the results.

Thank you everyone for the positive feedback
We're confident now it will work as it should. It would appear all the original problems were down to poor planning and implementation.
We'll be posting updates as and when there's something to say

TiredGeek

Linky to my Photobucket album
http://s1187.photobucket.com/albums/z383/TiredGeek/Heat%20Pumps/

Cardew

TiredGeek wrote: »

Linky to my Photobucket album
http://s1187.photobucket.com/albums/z383/TiredGeek/Heat%20Pumps/

Wow!

Impressive

mindovermatter

Hi
your setup looks amazing.
We are just about to sign up for an ASHP.
How did you arrange for Mitsubishi to supply and fit the monitoring equipment?
Have you got any other tips for a new install?
We are replacing an ancient LPG boiler
Best wishes
Mindovermatter

HappyMJ

I'm a little lost here. This is a 170 square metre house. More than twice as big as the "average" UK house of 80 square metres. The "average" UK house uses 16,500kWh of gas for heating, hot water and cooking. I would say you would use double based on that standard. However, the system also has about 31 radiators which is triple the "average" UK GCH installation so the system would use triple based on that standard. The "average" UK house is now quite well insulated hence the recent reductions of the average gas usage from 20,500kWh to 16,500kWh and you have solid stone walls which will increase consumption over the "average". You also live in a very cold region which will also increase the average. It's also detached where the "average" UK house is semi-detached.

If the SAP report says your house will require 291kWh/m2/year then why is that figure incorrect? What should it be? The average for GB is 198kWh/m2/year.

I can't see the usage dropping much below 100kWh/day (on a cold day) as you had with the previous system....at 13p/kWh for electric as you have quoted in a previous thread that would cost £13 per day. Over 6 months of the heating season that's 18,250kWh for heat (outputting at least double due to COP rating of 2 at 36,500kWh per year) plus hot water and normal electric usage.

System looks very impressive...hope it's worth it in the long run.

lovesgshp

Tired Geek.
Looks a tidy set-up.
Thought you may like to see some of our installs here in Italy. Just click on the thumbnails. Most GSHP, but some ASHP.
http://www.geotherm.it/Esempi_impianti.html

Swipe

I'd be interested if you could outline how this new installation differs from the original set up.