planning permission for work done years ago

mondaytuesday

Hi All
We are selling our house and our solicitor is asking for planning permission forms that dont exist.
basically, around 10-15 years ago, a wall was removed, a chimney stack built and a toilet was also built (which is definately not legal as it's too near the kitchen). Is there any way the council can make us revert everything back to how it was? it happened so long ago that I dont see how they can. we purchased the house two years ago and the wall and chimney issue were never raied by our solicitor, but we knew the loo was dodgy and we just accepted it and moved in.
Many thanks, katie

JennyW_2

mondaytuesday wrote: »

Hi All
we purchased the house two years ago and the wall and chimney issue were never raied by our solicitor, but we knew the loo was dodgy and we just accepted it and moved in.
Many thanks, katie

your solicitor was negligent then. He should've picked up on these points and requested the necessary paperwork when you were purchasing this property.

To help you now, you will have to take out indemnity insurance -your solicitor will sort this out for you.

oh, I believe you can have a toilet near the kitchen - I think there has to be two doors and wash facilities with the toilet?

silvercar

oh, I believe you can have a toilet near the kitchen - I think there has to be two doors and wash facilities with the toilet?

I think these are old rules, new rules require ventilation to the toilet, a sink and one door!

10-15 years ago is too long to be forced to take corrective action, as your solicitor probably knew when you bought. If you have a pernickety buyer's solicitor they may ask you to take out an indemnity. Though the indemnity would only give peace of mind as it is too long ago to be required to do any corrective work. The buyer's surveyor should check that the works were safe, particularly if walls and stacks were removed!

[Deleted User]

This is quite common, it happened to me on two separate occasions, once as Buyer and once as Seller. The above guys are right, you'll be asked to pay for an indemnity insurance, your solicitor will arrange this for you.

benood

TBH if I was asked to pay for indemnity insurance for this I would ask the buyer to think again - with luck they should come round without your money being wasted.

RiskAdverse100

It is the buyer's solicitors that need to think again. Maybe your solicitor can give them some basic information on planning law. Asking for indemnity insurance for work carried out this long ago suggests their knowledge on this particular subject is very limited.

RiskAdverse100

anotherbigspender

RiskAdverse100 wrote: »

It is the buyer's solicitors that need to think again. Maybe your solicitor can give them some basic information on planning law. Asking for indemnity insurance for work carried out this long ago suggests their knowledge on this particular subject is very limited.

RiskAdverse100

Indeedy!

RiskAdverse100 is quite right. Paying out for indemnity insurance in this instance is a waste of money (whichever party pays), as there is no risk to indemnify against.

Even if the works you describe needed planning permission 10-15 years ago (and there is a chance that they would not, but I'd need more info to give you a proper answer), the Council could not take enforcement action (i.e. make you put it back the way it was) now because of the length of time which has passed.

Refer your solicitor (and the buyers solicitor too) to Section 172 (4) of the Town and Country Planning Act 1990.

star_gazer_5

mondaytuesday wrote: »

Hi All
We are selling our house and our solicitor is asking for planning permission forms that dont exist.
basically, around 10-15 years ago, a wall was removed, a chimney stack built and a toilet was also built (which is definately not legal as it's too near the kitchen). Is there any way the council can make us revert everything back to how it was?

Hi

Maybe it could be that the buyers surveyor has mentioned it? If you still have your surveyors report when you purchased it, have a read through to see if this was highlighted. If it was and it was not discussed, you may have an issue to raise with your solicitor, if it wasn't and it should have been, you could take it up with the surveyor.

I would think it highly unlikely that you would need to reinstate, although it may require permission granted in "retrospect" if at all.

seven-day-weekend

It does not require retrospective Planning Permission or Indemnity Insurance at this late stage, it is far too old to be enforceable under Planning or Building Regs rules. All your solicitor should do is to refer them to the appropriate section of the Act, mentioned above and id they assist on paperwork a letter from the Planning Authority and Building Control stating that no action can be taken will suffice.

I used to write them all the time when I worked in Planning.

You'd be surprised how many conveyancing solicitors do not know the law.

Richard_Webster

First of all it is unlikley that any of this has anything to do with planniing. People will get confused between planning and building regulations.

A lot of this thread has been about planning and really that is hardly anything to do with it!

If the work was done 10-15 years ago and it DID need planning permisison (which is unlikely because if it was ientirely internal work it would have not required it and if it there was a small extension it would probably have been "permitted development" anyway) it would now be immune from Planning Enforcement so that is the end of the issue in planning terms.

Building Regs is a different matter. Problem is that unlike Planning there is no statutory period after which work becomes immune from enforcement.

In the real world building inspectors have better things to do than take action over small alterations to a residential property done years ago. Some Building Control departments may be rpepared to wrtie to say that no action will now be taken but others will say that but won't put it in writing, which is a problem.

Councils can take 2 types of enforcement action for breaches of building regs. Within 12 months of the work being done they can prosecute in the Magistarates Court. This is relatively easy. After 12 months all they can do is go to the civil courts for a injunction to have the work undone, which for the average domestic extension etc situation is way over the top and would attract much adverse local publicity. I think it would only ever be used if there was a major public building with and some real concerns about safety. I worked for a lcoal authority for 12 years and we never applied for an injunction in that time and there were may be 3 or 4 prosecutions all the time I worked there.

Trouble is that the whole thing has come up because of what many feel was an unfortunate High Court decision in 2000 in case called Cottingham v. Attey-Bower where it seems the judge said that a solcicitor shouldask about whether or not fairly old works had a building regulation approval. Solicitors always took the view that it was their job to advise about legal risks, ie. might you be prosecuted/sued, and issues about structural condition were a matter for a surveyor.

Because of this case solicitors have the problem that lenders expect them to check everything is OK. I can tell a client that there is small risk factor, i.e the fact that something has got a building reg approval may mean that it isn't built properly, but ther emay well be lot sof things particualrly onan older property that would not comply with modern regualtions so they need to see it in context and lots of people don't worry, particularly if their surveyor couldn't see an actual problem.

Problem conveyancing solicitors have is that we can't have that kind of conversation with a mortgage lender. They just don't have peo9ple we can talk to who can make decsions about that kind of thing. they leave it up to us and come down on us later if something goes wrong and everyting isn't completely in order. If we write to them about it they may well pass it round the office for a time and then evetually send it to their surveyor who will want to prtoect his back and will recommend some totally over the top solution like getting the Council round to check it all (at great expense to all concerned and a delay of a month or so while the lender makes up its mind.) The result is that a buyer's solicitor may well ask for a Building Regulation Indemnity Policy so they can be seen to be dealing with the point if asked.

The policy doesn't protect against faulty construction, only against enforcement by the Council and you can't have a policy if you have talked to the Council about the work. To that extent it may be a waste of money but we are up against the lender bureacracy issue. Most clients if offered the choice of either have apolicy or wait for the lender to possibly say in a month's time (if you are lucky) they don't want a policy, will go for a policy.
The cost is not great - e.g. for £200-£250K proeprty about £75.

As a conveyancing solicitor I believe the information given in the post to be useful but I accept no liability except to fee-paying clients