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ESA85 and scoresheet

I have been sent a copy of the ESA85 ESA medical report by DWP with a decision makers scoresheet (very badly typed). I asked whether there had been any decision when I asked for the ESA85 which I think may of been why I have been sent the scoresheet. I also received a Jobcentre Plus envelope with no explanation as to why. There was no covering letter.

The scoresheet shows the ATOS professional outcome & scores and there is a decision maker column which is empty, no scores. There is also a Claimant column, outcome & score which is empty of any values.

Does anyone know what is the purpose of the claimant column? Also the purpose of the envelope? Does this give any opportunity to challenge the Atos decisions which were wrong, misrepresenting the medical and medical reports and drawing conclusions based upon what others might experience, rather than any evidence?
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Comments

  • Muttleythefrog
    Muttleythefrog Posts: 20,119 Forumite
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    edited 17 July 2012 at 4:53PM
    Interesting. I wonder if they've included the document by error along with ESA85 which they regarded you as requesting. To an outsider this sounds like an internal DWP administrative document. Does the scoresheet have a reference number... like ESA123?

    Aside from that how did you do in the ESA85 ATOS HCP medical report.. it should state the descriptors for the WCA that the HCP felt applied to you? It is quite likely the DWP will take a decision that effectively rubber stamps the report. If the DWP haven't made a decision yet then you could try challenging an undesired or inaccurate medical report in writing and with evidence if you have any.
    "Do not attribute to conspiracy what can adequately be explained by incompetence" - rogerblack
  • Adereterial
    Adereterial Posts: 549 Forumite
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    Both the 'claimant' column and the DWP column will be completed once the decision is made. The Decision Maker will apply their scores and will also insert scores in the claimant column based on the answers you gave on the ESA50. It will be used as the basis of any decision as it will only address descriptors where points have been scored by either yourself, the HCP or the Decision Maker.
  • A.Penny.Saved
    A.Penny.Saved Posts: 1,832 Forumite
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    edited 17 July 2012 at 5:51PM
    Interesting. I wonder if they've included the document by error along with ESA85 which they regarded you as requesting. To an outsider this sounds like an internal DWP administrative document. Does the scoresheet have a reference number... like ESA123?
    It has a small 8 digit reference number in the bottom right of the sheets
    Aside from that how did you do in the ESA85 ATOS HCP medical report.. it should state the descriptors for the WCA that the HCP felt applied to you? It is quite likely the DWP will take a decision that effectively rubber stamps the report. If the DWP haven't made a decision yet then you could try challenging an undesired or inaccurate medical report in writing and with evidence if you have any.
    It looks like it would have to go to a tribunal. I am sure that they have misreported what my medical records show. I cannot believe that they say that there was no supporting medical evidence for what I have said. I am in a clinic especially to deal with such problems rather than the regular clinic and on one visit, the consultant was so concerned that he called another consultant in to discuss the problems. Two doctors, a separate clinic, evidence that I saw the doctor writing down and yet Atos claim that there is no medical evidence!

    The nurse, who didn't know anything about my conditions and she said as such to me while I was at the medical, totally avoided the most important elements which would of earned the most points. She spent/wasted the medical asking questions which were aimed at identifying whether there was any mental health condition. The questions that she asked on a subject that my GP had already excluded as being the cause, seemed carefully planned to avoid dealing with the points winning elements. She even refused to accept the evidence that I had provided.

    The answers that I gave in response to her questions, which she did not validate or ask any further questions to find out whether there was any other explanation for my answers, would of indicated a mental health condition. Unfortunately, I only thought about this after the medical. If she had questioned me more thoroughly, the real meaning of my answers would of been uncovered. Even with those answers she still ruled that there was no mental health condition which was a big surprise to me. I was expecting atos to claim that that there was a mental health condition which was causing one of the problems. It was already known before hand by looking at my medical reports that there was no mental health condition because my GP had already checked and ruled it out. I therefore believe that this was all to avoid dealing with the real points winning elements so that ATOS could find no reason for me to be unfit for work.

    The more that I have done to help myself, at considerable personal expense, the more I have been disbelieved and given a hard time. I am sure that I would be dead if it wasn't for my efforts, like many other people in my situation fall foul to. However because of things that I have found and done, I am still alive, not required any long term care, avoided hospital admissions, coma or death. Atos ?healthcare professionals? know no more than the average person in the street IMO. They seem to wear blinkers so that they see only what they want to see.

    There is small elements that supply some proof, the nurse made a reference to it but did not mention the cause and she was told the cause. Part of the tests I could not do due to pain and she put down, normal. My medical records would disprove that.

    I would recommend to anyone who has to attend a medical to get copies of your medical records! Don't rely on Atos to get them because they are likely to misrepresent them. Highlight the important parts! I made that mistake.

    The best part about it is that Atos didn't bother with a medical the first time, it all went through without a problem. If there was no medical evidence, then would they not be incompetent to pass me?

    I will have to find out how to get copies of my medical records which I can use. I will speak to the hospital doctors on my next appointment which is fast approaching, to find out what they think about it. I will go over what I do and why I have not needed hospitalization.
  • Muttleythefrog
    Muttleythefrog Posts: 20,119 Forumite
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    Penny... were no descriptors found to apply in the medical report...?
    "Do not attribute to conspiracy what can adequately be explained by incompetence" - rogerblack
  • A.Penny.Saved
    A.Penny.Saved Posts: 1,832 Forumite
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    Penny... were no descriptors found to apply in the medical report...?
    Yes, IMO there were quite a few but Atos claim that due to there being no supporting evidence, which I dispute, they don't apply.

    I question how they could find me unfit for work the last time and yet this, they claim there is no supporting evidence, when the ESA50 was mostly the same, except that this time there were other things added which were appropriate. Those were mentioned on the previous ESA50 but not expanded upon as I did in the current ESA50. I did make copies of the first ESA50 and did refer to it when filling in the current ESA50.

    My GP has been of very little help, my GP's advice only makes my condition considerably worse.

    The thing is, if I followed my GP's advice, I am sure that there would be a lot more points awarded. Even without those, there should be sufficient. However, knowing that I can feel considerably better by doing things my way, it would be stupid of me to follow the advice and potentially risk my life in the process. Serious risk to health if I was made fit for work certainly applies IMO.

    Do you know where I would get my medical reports from? Do they charge for them?
  • Owain_Moneysaver
    Owain_Moneysaver Posts: 11,389 Forumite
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    Each ESA50 has to stand on its own account - no point in referring to a previous ESA as they won't read it.

    Also, most GP and other medical reports in response to ATOS enquiries are superficial at best. If you want medical supporting evidence get a letter from them which you send in with the ESA, that way you know exactly what it says, and hopefully discuss it with the letter writer first so it agrees with what you put in the ESA and corresponds to the descriptors under which you are claiming.
    A kind word lasts a minute, a skelped erse is sair for a day.
  • A.Penny.Saved
    A.Penny.Saved Posts: 1,832 Forumite
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    Each ESA50 has to stand on its own account - no point in referring to a previous ESA as they won't read it.
    There was no reference to any previous ESA50's in the latest ESA50. I myself referred to it while filling it in. Therefore it was largely the same.
    Also, most GP and other medical reports in response to ATOS enquiries are superficial at best. If you want medical supporting evidence get a letter from them which you send in with the ESA, that way you know exactly what it says, and hopefully discuss it with the letter writer first so it agrees with what you put in the ESA and corresponds to the descriptors under which you are claiming.
    I was under the impression that they actually got copies of the medical records which they used to process the ESA50 and prepare the medical assessment.

    Are you saying Atos write to the doctors asking questions rather than look at the records themselves?
  • richard9991
    richard9991 Posts: 1,618 Forumite
    They are sent a tick form to send back to atos
  • Muttleythefrog
    Muttleythefrog Posts: 20,119 Forumite
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    edited 18 July 2012 at 2:20AM
    Yes, IMO there were quite a few but Atos claim that due to there being no supporting evidence, which I dispute, they don't apply.

    I question how they could find me unfit for work the last time and yet this, they claim there is no supporting evidence, when the ESA50 was mostly the same, except that this time there were other things added which were appropriate. Those were mentioned on the previous ESA50 but not expanded upon as I did in the current ESA50. I did make copies of the first ESA50 and did refer to it when filling in the current ESA50.

    My GP has been of very little help, my GP's advice only makes my condition considerably worse.

    The thing is, if I followed my GP's advice, I am sure that there would be a lot more points awarded. Even without those, there should be sufficient. However, knowing that I can feel considerably better by doing things my way, it would be stupid of me to follow the advice and potentially risk my life in the process. Serious risk to health if I was made fit for work certainly applies IMO.

    Do you know where I would get my medical reports from? Do they charge for them?

    I'm struggling here to be honest with you... to get facts... I ask if the form had a code and you say yes but don't give it...lol... I ask what the medical report is recommending and you respond it might need to go to tribunal. I need you in very clear terms (direct facts.. try to be very direct) to tell me what the ATOS medical report ESA85 is recommending in terms of descriptors that apply or decision that should be taken if you don't want to go into those. You understand what I mean by descriptors I think...and recommendation regarding entitlement (fit for work, WRAG or Support group)... the ATOS HC medical report ESA85 should state the descriptors the HCP felt applied. If this report is supportive to your case then there's a lot of discussion that can be avoided about medical records or appeals. I suspect given the way you're talking that it is not supportive and lists few if any descriptors as applying as there is general disregard for your health problems... reading between the lines it is recommending you be found fit for work... but you can tell us if that is true or not.

    Regarding medical records etc. For a Work Cap. Assessment for ESA they don't access your medical records unless you put them into evidence or to some degree they might see some indirectly if they request your GP complete an ESA113 form which is fairly basic. There may be little or no evidence of or at/from former assessments being used... i.e. it is always advisable to send in evidence you want considered even if you think they should be looking at it or already have it.

    But you need to focus... you're sending me into a spiral here... what exactly is the medical report recommending... I understand you have not had a decision regarding this reassessment yet.. it is likely that the DWP will effectively rubber stamp the ESA85 as their decision... what decision will they reach if they do that?

    Reuesting medical records... this page has all the info. http://www.nhsmedicalrecords.org.uk/medicalrecords.php
    "Do not attribute to conspiracy what can adequately be explained by incompetence" - rogerblack
  • Muttleythefrog
    Muttleythefrog Posts: 20,119 Forumite
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    edited 18 July 2012 at 1:01AM
    Are you saying Atos write to the doctors asking questions rather than look at the records themselves?

    In most cases they will do neither! They sometimes contact GP with form ESA113 if they feel that would be sufficient alternative to face to face medical in order to provide advice to the DWP. I don't think ATOS have any rights to look at your medical records (and they do not request them as such)... but someone will correct me if I'm wrong.
    "Do not attribute to conspiracy what can adequately be explained by incompetence" - rogerblack
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