First Capital Connect Penalty Issued to 15 year old

Tracey284

My son travelled from Mill Hill Broadway to St Albans with a group of friends. He tapped his Oyster card in and boarded the train. When they arrived at St Albans, they were stopped and told that the Oyster cards were not valid beyond Elstree and Borehamwood. This was the first time my son had made this journey and neither he nor I were aware of this. He paid £3 (the fare from Borehamwood is actually (£2.35) and was issued with a penalty notice to pay another £17. At the time, the inspectors picked and chose which people they would let off and didn't fine them all. Discrimination? I duly appealed and received the following response:

"Thank you for your correspondence, received by this office on 29-Jun-2012
The Penalty Fares Rules work in conjunction with the National Rail Conditions of Carriage (NRCOC). Both state that where the facility exists at the origin station passengers must buy the correct ticket for their entire journey before joining the train. Penalty Fare warning notices are displayed at all Penalty Fare stations advising rail users of the necessity to produce a valid ticket for inspection on request and of the consequences for failing to do so.
Appeal decisions are made in accordance with a Government approved Code of Practice (COP). A copy of the Penalty Fare Rules, NRCOC and approved COP are available online at (link given in letter)
I understand from your appeal that an Oyster card with stored funds was presented for inspection as a ticket to travel. Stored funds loaded on to an Oyster card do not constitute a valid ticket until the card has been successfully touched in and out as only then can the correct fare for the journey be calculated. In all cases Oyster products can only be used on the agreed National Rail routes, as advertised. Please use the following link to Transport for London's website to view the stations at which Oyster products are accepted at National Rail stations:- (link given)
Conditions of Carriage state that it is the responsibility of the passenger to confirm the validity of their ticket before travelling. Whilst I understand there was no intention to avoid payment of the fare, because Oyster is not valid by rail to the destination station recorded on the notice, the Penalty Fare was issued correctly. You may apply for a refund of any money deducted from the Oyster card owner's stored funds immediately prior to making this journey (if applicable) from the Oyster Help Line, telephone 0845 330 9876.
With that in mind, your appeal has been unsuccessful. Attached is a statement provided by the Debt Collection Agency (RPSS). An amount of £17.00 is currently outstanding and should be paid immediately to avoid further action or charges. This can be paid using credit/debit card by telephone on 0844 259 4786, Monday-Friday, 6am - 10pm, or online at (link given in letter). Alternatively, you can send a cheque or postal order to RPSS, PO Box 89, Portsmouth, Hants, PO1 1EG. If there are any queries regarding the statement please contact RPSS direct.
Yours sincerely
Jason Saunders Appeals Assessor"

I also explained in my letter that as they knew where to go, they had not looked at the train map so were totally unaware of the limit of the Oyster card. In addition my comment as to why some were let off and others not has not been addressed.

Help please!

Thank you

Tracey284

giraffe69

Why does it make any difference who else was "let off". If you are stopped for doing 45mph in a 30mph area you won't be successful in using the defence "others were doing this"
Oyster is a London area card. It is not reasonable to think St Albans is in this zone. If you want to use a card then know the rules for doing so. Mind you extending it further would be a good idea.

Seanymph

I'm afraid I'm with giraffe.

Saying 'but I didn't know it was illegal' doesn't work as a defence - and it doesn't matter who else gets away with it, it's irrelevant.

He was doing it wrong, he got fined, it needs paying.

yorkie2

I don't understand the part about them letting some people off.

However he has not been issued with a fine, he has been charged a Penalty Fare, which is a fare charged for an honest mistake. He has not been accused of attempting to avoid payment of a fare and has been treated as someone who made a mistake.

If you want to find out what happens when FCC do not believe someone has made an honest mistake, try a Google search for FCC prosecution!

Tracey284

Thank you for your replies. My point was that the group were all travelling together and all made the same mistake in that the all believed the Oystercardvwas valid. So why should some be issued with penalty tickets and not others?

The other issue is that children (under 16) pay half price fares so presumably penalties for children should also be half price!

The Oystercard is valid to Watford so it was not unreasonable to believe it was valid to St Albans (also Hertfordshire).

yorkie2

Tracey284 wrote: »

Thank you for your replies. My point was that the group were all travelling together and all made the same mistake in that the all believed the Oystercardvwas valid. So why should some be issued with penalty tickets and not others?

Agreed, that seems odd. Can you supply more information about what happened?

Tracey284 wrote: »

The other issue is that children (under 16) pay half price fares so presumably penalties for children should also be half price!

No, but according to London Travelwatch "The application of Penalty Fares should include a direction to staff to exercise the use of discretion in relation children under the age of 16" - you may wish to contact them for advice.

Tracey284 wrote: »

The Oystercard is valid to Watford so it was not unreasonable to believe it was valid to St Albans (also Hertfordshire).

Yes, it is not unreasonable. A Penalty Fare is charged for an honest mistake. If a passenger does something that is unreasonable then FCC tend not to charge a PF and instead prosecute.

arcon5

If there was a bunch of people, could it not be a case of the worker can only deal with one person at a time and didn't get the opportunity to issue the penalty fare notices to all?

Either way, he didn't have a valid ticket.

Have him pay the fare (or you pay it and deduct it from his pocket money), sit him down and explain the rules of the card and move on

dzug1

Tracey284 wrote: »

At the time, the inspectors picked and chose which people they would let off and didn't fine them all. Discrimination?

Discretion, maybe - how do you tell the difference between that and discrimination? Discretion does mean that the course of action may be different even in apparently identical circumstances

Maybe your son was more lippy than some of the others. Maybe they ran out of time to issue all the notices

spiro

Tracey284 wrote: »

The other issue is that children (under 16) pay half price fares so presumably penalties for children should also be half price!

I have never seen a sign that says the penalty is half for children.

Notmyrealname

Tracey284 wrote: »

Thank you for your replies. My point was that the group were all travelling together and all made the same mistake in that the all believed the Oystercardvwas valid. So why should some be issued with penalty tickets and not others?

Because that is the luck of the draw. If a bunch of bikers are pulled up for speeding, a few of them will get done, the others will not.

The other issue is that children (under 16) pay half price fares so presumably penalties for children should also be half price!

Where do you get that asinine idea from?

The Oystercard is valid to Watford so it was not unreasonable to believe it was valid to St Albans (also Hertfordshire).

Well if you think it would be reasonable to believe its valid to St Albans then why not make it Luton as that is only the same distance from St Albans as St Albans is from Watford? Why not then make it Leighton Buzzard, thats only another 10 miles away? And then why not make it Milton Keynes? And then we could make it to Bedford, St Neots, Huntingdon....after all, they're all only around the same distance apart as St Albans is to Watford.

luckwudaveit

I think a £17 penalty fare is not unreasonable. Your son was travelling without a valid ticket and got caught. Sometimes life isn't fair but I think you will hit the buffers, steaming in with a letter of complaint.