Disabled Ebay Seller's Tax Credits Stopped - Advice Please!

GlasweJen

Ah looks like they've assessed your previous years and decided you haven't generated enough profit and so couldn't have put in the hours based on your 3 months of statements.

Do you keep a log of your work? Or do you have accounts? I don't think even the CAB will be able to do much here, can social services put you in touch with a welfare rights worker?

System

I am assuming that the 3 months account sent in by the OP were her best months. If so, and they show very little if any profit then the DWP line that it is a hobby and not a viable business is understandable

Magic_Fairy

Yes I sent 3 months accounts and receipts of purchases, invoices of sales etc and they claim I didn't work 32 hours based on the amount of activity they saw during those 3 months (I assume). I asked if I could provide any other evidence of the tasks I undertake for my buiness and they said no they were ending my claim. They are saying I haven't even worked the minimum 16 hours a week which is completely untrue and is based on their opinion and not facts. I sent a breakdown of all the work related activities I do and how long they take me and they are basically calling me a liar. How do they know how long it takes me to repair a vintage dress, or how long it takes me to take photographs and upload them etc? They are disputing the time it takes me to do what I do without giving me a chance to provide further evidence as offered by myself.

This was nothing to do with me renewing my claim this tax year as I haven't bothered to due to all this mess. This was because they did a random investigation and decided I don't qualify. I have no problem with being told they don't think I qualify if that is the case, but I do have a problem with them waiting 14 months after I renewed my claim to investigate and then demand 14 months worth of benefit back! They knew about my disability and the grounds for my claim, they knew my income was low and if there was any concern that I was on the wrong benefit I think they should have told me before I ran up a £6500 debt.

princessdon

I completely agree re the overpayment - seems very harsh.

How many listings do you do?

Is there anything in your shop that they can view that makes them think you are a hobby not in expectation of income. Ie do you follow DSR's and have legal return policies, do you display your trading address?
If all of the above are in place then you need to appeal

Genuinely I think 32 hours isn't gonna hold (based on what you have posted here - I can't see your ebay account), but it *may*. I am not sure they will compensate for your disability - that isn't in their criteria, I assume you will be treat on a level playing field with none disabled, could be wrong but I see nothing in their rules for this.

How much profit did you make last year (don't answer on here), was it small so that this may have flagged you? If it was small - then you would have expected them to conact you to discuss. If large (eg 32 x NMW) or over then you can argue it is a bad year due to trading conditions.

Without facts (that you rightly want to keep to private) no one can really advise further.

Icequeen99

princessdon wrote: »

I completely agree re the overpayment - seems very harsh.

How many listings do you do?

Is there anything in your shop that they can view that makes them think you are a hobby not in expectation of income. Ie do you follow DSR's and have legal return policies, do you display your trading address?
If all of the above are in place then you need to appeal

Genuinely I think 32 hours isn't gonna hold (based on what you have posted here - I can't see your ebay account), but it *may*. I am not sure they will compensate for your disability - that isn't in their criteria, I assume you will be treat on a level playing field with none disabled, could be wrong but I see nothing in their rules for this.

How much profit did you make last year (don't answer on here), was it small so that this may have flagged you? If it was small - then you would have expected them to conact you to discuss. If large (eg 32 x NMW) or over then you can argue it is a bad year due to trading conditions.

Without facts (that you rightly want to keep to private) no one can really advise further.

I have to disagree, she won't have to be treated on a level playing field.

I'll say again (since this thread has became so derailed) that ALL that is relevant here is whether the OP is in qualifying remunerative work under the WTC regulations. To be in QRW as a self-employed person she needs to show that each of the hours worked was in expectation of payment. It has nothing to do with viability of the business/loss/profit being less than NMW.

The fact that it takes her longer to do a task than someone else is not discounted. As long as she can show that each of those hours was in expectation of payment then that is enough and it will be enough if she can show a Tribunal that fact.

So for example, say it takes the OP 1 hr to package up something to send to a customer whereas it takes someone else 1/2 an hour. The 1 hr is still spent doing something that is essential for the sale (i.e. once you sell something it has to be sent). So that whole hour is in expectation of payment.

There are lots of differing views on this thread about the OP's position and the policy of the benefits, but all that really matters is whether she can show those two things above to win an appeal. An if she chooses not to appeal (I think she should by the way), then how does she deal with the £6,500 debt.

IQ

princessdon

But IQ - How do you prove it takes you say 2 hours to wash and iron an item of clothing that takes say me 30 mins max?

AFAIK (and yes I don't have your knowledge so you can help with this), they don't allow for "over reasonable time adjustments" due to disability, they don't have the expertise to assess medically and so will surely apply a reasonable time allocation.

For eg if I was doing Ebay as a business. If I walked to the Post Office (and I enjoy walking) can I claim 12 hours a week postage (1 hour there and back each day), or would they determine that 12 hours a week to post isn't reasonable.

I am certainly not saying OP should give up, or not appeal (far too unfair to expect repayment) - but I am not entirely convinced that the "it takes me longer and there are days I can't work due to disability" is the right path for a successful appeal, perhaps I am wrong

Showing it was in consideration of money - detailing past profits, showing rmeeting new wholesalers, reseaching new wholesalers, markt research, listing markets she walked round (even if didn't buy stock), preparing ccounts etc (there may be tasks she does that she doesn't even think of, I don't know as I don't do Ebay but there is likely to be things she has missed) to "add up to the 32 hours" *may* be more beneficial.

WabbitWabbit

I do agree that tax credit's can be abused but please do not think that all self employed Ebay sellers are the same.
I left employment due to constant ill health and was placed on ESA and could have just stayed on that, I wanted to work but knew that the only way for me was to be self employed and on advice from the Job Centre I signed off from ESA and started selling on Ebay on the 6th April 2011 and as I had been on ESA for over 6 months I received a back to work grant of £40 per week which lasted for one year. I had to show proof of working (invoices from suppliers, Ebay and Paypal accounts). I also on advice from the Job Centre applied for tax credits and estimated a net profit in my first year of trading to be in the region of £6000.00. I do all my own accounting but decided to use an accountant for my tax return as I have never had to complete one before and my estimate was pretty close, my net profit (including stock) for 2011/2012 was £5700.00. I have worked very hard and my business has grown from strength to strength and this tax year I do not think I will be entitled to any tax credit as my income will be too high.
I would never have been able to start my own business if it was not for tax credits in my first year of trading but I do understand that the system can and is abused.

Magic_Fairy

princessdon wrote: »

But IQ - How do you prove it takes you say 2 hours to wash and iron an item of clothing that takes say me 30 mins max?

This is the problem I have. They don't believe I spend the time I do on activities relating to my business but when I asked what evidence they would accept they told me they were closing my claim without allowing me to send the extra information.

Icequeen99

princessdon wrote: »

But IQ - How do you prove it takes you say 2 hours to wash and iron an item of clothing that takes say me 30 mins max?

AFAIK (and yes I don't have your knowledge so you can help with this), they don't allow for "over reasonable time adjustments" due to disability, they don't have the expertise to assess medically and so will surely apply a reasonable time allocation.

For eg if I was doing Ebay as a business. If I walked to the Post Office (and I enjoy walking) can I claim 12 hours a week postage (1 hour there and back each day), or would they determine that 12 hours a week to post isn't reasonable.

I am certainly not saying OP should give up, or not appeal (far too unfair to expect repayment) - but I am not entirely convinced that the "it takes me longer and there are days I can't work due to disability" is the right path for a successful appeal, perhaps I am wrong

Showing it was in consideration of money - detailing past profits, showing rmeeting new wholesalers, reseaching new wholesalers, markt research, listing markets she walked round (even if didn't buy stock), preparing ccounts etc (there may be tasks she does that she doesn't even think of, I don't know as I don't do Ebay but there is likely to be things she has missed) to "add up to the 32 hours" *may* be more beneficial.

I absolutely agree with your last paragraph, the element of activities taking longer than of someone without a disability is just a small part of it.

In these sorts of appeals, I always suggest that Step 1 is to write out a full list (including all of the small things) with the hours next to them, that is what should be presented as written evidence to the Tribunal. Anything where it looks more than a 'reasonable' amount of time, the OP can provide her medical evidence to explain why it takes longer than normal.

And you're right, HMRC staff probably don't allow for over-reasonable adjustments, but that doesn't mean you can't account for it within the legislative definition. So coming back to what I said in my earlier post - the length of the activity is irrelevant as long as each hour was in expectation of payment. Obviously if you said that it takes 6 hours to do something that most people do in 30 minutes, they may well not believe that - but they would be saying that they didn't believe it actually took you that long rather than they accepted it took that long but wasn't in expectation of payment.

So step 1 for the appeal is to list the activities that are in expectation of payment and the hours that go with them, explaining if any of them take a bit longer due to disability (but stressing they are still worked in expectation of payment).

The second step (if it reaches Tribunal stage) is to look at any other arguments HMRC make and counter them. SO in these cases their most common arguments are 1) the person didn't earn NMW - this is an easy one to discount as there is no such requirement for tax credits 2) the activity is not in expectation of payment - success on this depends on the activity, but certainly if they say looking for stock or sending emails (real examples I have seen) are not activities in expectation of payment you can argue that they are essential for the operation of the business. Similarly if they argue that the fact you offer for sale something that doesn't sell is 'hope of payment' rather than expectation of payment - you could argue against that.

Above all you have to evidence each and every thing.

Other things than can be argued are things like HMRC using 3 months information to determine an annual award - they can't assess whether a person was working enough hours in June if they asked for information from October.

The OP can get assistance with this from an advice agency.

IQ

Magic_Fairy

Thank you Icequeen99, that was very helpful.