Car Park Appeal Hell

Knighty

Hoping for help. We parked our car in a train car park operated by a firm called Meteor. The payment is managed via a phone operated system (where we have both of our car reg plates saved). We paid for parking but it was against the wrong car (doh)- we have a receipt to prove payment (sounds like fair grounds to appeal doesn't it - fines are there to penalise those that genuinely don't pay aren't they)?

A few issues. Firstly, the T&C's state you have to park against the correct reg plate (fair enough - but we have clearly paid and have sent the evidence). Secondly, I work away so I didn't appeal until Day 8 (I was given 7 days to appeal) - so it was referred to a Debt agency. Thirdly, appeal procedures are built to prevent me from appealing and the fines seem to be escalating beyond what was stated in the original notice with neither the parking firm or debt collection agency able to take a decision on waiving - they refer to each other. The below detail outlines the appeal process so far (an extract from an email I just sent to both parties)- if you have the time and tenacity to provide an opinion it would be great):

• I was one day late in appealing my fine from Meteor (I work in Holland and was late opening my post). The notice was received 19th June 2012 and I responded via email on 27th June. I responded on Day 8 when provided with 7 days to appeal (this feels like quite a short period by the way).
• I was emailed by Meteor (Zoe) on the 9th July. it stated that because I was late in sending an appeal, that my fine had been referred to Roxburghe for Debt Collection. I didn't get this response until 9th July and the number provided for Roxburghe was incorrect so I was unable to contact them.
• I managed to find a number for Meteor today (11th July). I had to phone head office to get a number for customer service - it's made very difficult to talk to people due to lack of phone numbers on the Meteor websites. I was told by Jack that I could still appeal to Roxburghe but that Meteor could not get involved as it had already been escalated to Roxburghe.
• I phoned Roxburghe and spoke to Anthony, who informed me my fine is now £144 (despite the PCN stating that the fine is £50 if paid within 15 days and £90 if within 30 days). I would like to note that I made appeal on Day 8, I got my response from Meteor two days ago (the clock should stop when I appeal, so I believe I am actually on Day 10). I have just made further appeal (via this email) so expect the clock to freeze again until you respond via email.
• Anthony informed me that I had to pay my fine - nothing could be done as Meteor had referred the matter to Debt Collection (not what I was told my Jack of Meteor). I insisted that I wanted to appeal / talk to a supervisor and Anthony then advised me to send an email, which would be logged and likely to take around 7 days to respond to. I'm told that once this email is processed that it will be forwarded to Meteor for decision to accept my appeal.

We seem to be going around in circles - no one seems to be able to process my appeal and I attach a receipt to show that we paid (again)! The spirit of fines is to penalise people that do not pay - we did pay (albeit we made a genuine mistake in terms of the registration used as required by your terms and conditions) - please see below emails to see the full situation).

I also do not understand why the fine is £144 when the notice clearly states differently - I'm still within the time periods noted. The clock should stop when I make an appeal. I appealed on day 8 so how did the fine go beyond £50 (although I still argue that I should not be paying this at all if you are indeed set-up to penalise real offenders as opposed to people that paid but made a small mistake).

I again urge both Roxburghe and Meteor to waive this charge and would also like to raise how confusing this process is and the difficulties in getting information and having a helpful discussion. At the moment, it just feels like you taking advantage of a term and condition to penalise people and make profit unfairly when I can clearly evidence payment and that you are making the appeals process as confusing as possible to prevent fair appeal.

I urge you again to waive this fine on the basis that we have paid and also the fact that I am being passed from pillar to post to make what I think should be a simple appeal.

muckybutt

From what you have described in your post you have joined the parking bog paper club congratulations :T:T

Now the serious stuff which is very simple, you have what appears to be a private parking ticket seeing as you have had contact with debt collectors. From now on do nothing else, you have already given this "ticket" too much credit, what you have is a speculative invoice from a bunch of crooks.
You paid and you have a reciept for it, regardless if its for a different car they have lost nothing, you therefore owe £0.00.

Ignore all communication from them from now on, tempting as it is to carry on DONT !

The only time to worry is if they have the balls to persue it in court, but as you said you have paid.

steve1500

Stop talking to them & don't give them a penny. If you search this site you will see plenty of references to Roxburghe

Appealing and winning you have more chance of you numbers coming up on the Lottery

Stephen_Leak

Firstly, the legal stuff.

Only councils, the police, train operators and Transport for London can impose legally enforceable fines or penalties. A private parking company (PPC) or an individual can't. Even PPCs call their tickets “Parking Charge Notices”, not “Penalty Charge Notices”. In law, they’re called “speculative invoices”.

Any warning signs are usually so badly positioned and worded, that they won’t have created a fair and legally binding deemed contract between the car park owner and a driver entering the car park in the first place. See The Unfair Contract Terms Act 1997 and Excel Parking Services vs. Cutts, Stockport, 2011.

All the car park owner (CPO) can claim from a driver in damages for any breach of contract is what they’ve lost as a result. If this is a free car park or they paid, this is £0.00. Demanding more has been judged to be unreasonable and therefore an unfair contract penalty under the terms of The Unfair Contract Terms Act 1997, which is not legally enforceable. See Dunlop Pneumatic Tyre Co. Ltd. vs. New Garage & Motor Co. Ltd., House of Lords, 1914 and countless cases since.

There are also now two recent court cases, VCS Parking Control vs. Ronald Ibbotson, S!!!!horpe, 2012 and VCS Parking Control vs. HM Revenue & Customs, Upper Tax Tribunal, 2012. In both cases, the judges found that only the car park owner can take drivers to court. The Upper Tax Tribunal is a court of record, equivalent to the High Court, and therefore its judgement sets a legal precedent.

What should I do now?

We don’t condone not paying or overstaying in a pay car park. If you do owe the CPO anything, then you ought to write to them, offering this in “full and final settlement”.

In any event, you ought to advise the CPO that they are "jointly and severally liable" for the actions of their agents, the PPC, and that any further actions by them would be regarded as harassment under the terms of The Protection from Harassment Act 1997. That ought to make the CPO call off the PPC and, hopefully, realise the potential cost of doing business with them.

Don’t appeal to the PPC. They always reject them. What’s in it for them to let anyone off? Actually, there is something in it for them: information. They need to know the identity of the driver of the vehicle involved at the time, because that’s who the alleged contract was with. If they don’t know who the driver was, they have to make do with chasing the registered keeper.

With windscreen notices, an appeal letter will tell them your name and address, and maybe who was driving at the time. If they don’t know who the driver was, they have to buy the details of registered keeper from the DVLA. With postal notices, they’ve done this already. But they still need to know the identity of the driver.

They sometimes say that they have the right to ask for this information. This doesn’t mean that you have to tell them.

However, even if you’ve written and told them who the driver was, it doesn’t make their actions any less unlawful. It just means that instead of harassing the registered keeper, they can now harass the driver.

What will they do to me?

The PPC, then a debt collector and then a solicitor will send you a series of letters. The debt collector and solicitor are usually also the PPC, but using different headed paper. These letters will threaten you with every kind of financial and legal unpleasantness imaginable, to intimidate you into paying.

But, they can't actually do anything, for the same reason that a Nigerian e-mail scammer couldn't sue anyone who didn’t pay them.

What should I do then?

Continue to ignore everything you get from the PPC and their aliases. It does seem counter-intuitive to deal with something by ignoring it. Eventually, they will run out of empty threats, and stop throwing good money after bad.

justtryingtogetby

As above. I think what you will find is your appeal letter you receive is a generic 'Your appeal has failed letter'.

I have NEVER heard of anyone that has successfully appealled a private parking fine.

As was mentioned above, ignore the letter, not because you are being rude, but because your reply/response will fall on deaf ears, and, by replying, they will end up sending you more letters trying to scare you.

The letters you receive will turn up at different points, 1 month time, followed by another in another month. Most will be 'Final Notices'. You tend to receive a lot of final notices.

One thing to bare in mind is the following: Your 'Fine' will amount to, say, £150. Whilst they will indicate to you that failure to pay this fine will lead to court costs, interest on top, solicitor fees. You need to flip it around and question would THEY risk having to pay all these costs if/WHEN they lose. The answer is no, because unfortunately, alot of people are still paying these fines.

Ignore it.

Sir_Roger_deLodger

As you have discovered, ther is no such thing as an "appeal" with these parasites. They just want your money.

Expect some more garbage from "Graham White Solicitors" [actually Roxburghe under a different name]. Ignore them and they will eventually give up.

Stephen_Leak

justtryingtogetby wrote: »

<snip> I have NEVER heard of anyone that has successfully appealled a private parking fine. <snip>

I have. They do allow some.

We suspect that they allow a few, to meet the British Parking Association (BPA) target.

Of course, there are also those cases, where the victim has "appealed" to the car park owner, who has then told their PPC to back off.

notts_phil

Why have you even given them the time of day?

You have wasted your time as the is no appeal. It's fake

Don't waste any more time and ignore them from now on. Oh and it isn't a fine.

Knighty

Well I got the letter today from the Debt Collector. They refer to the 'anecdotel information on the internet' and refer me to Civil Procedure Rules part 31 (specifically parts 31.16 and 31.17). The aforementioned Graham White solicitors are also mentioned.

Parasites!

Stephen_Leak

Knighty wrote: »

Well I got the letter today from the Debt Collector. They refer to the 'anecdotel information on the internet' and refer me to Civil Procedure Rules part 31 (specifically parts 31.16 and 31.17). The aforementioned Graham White solicitors are also mentioned.

Parasites!

I just love their phrase, "We are aware of anecdotal information being presented via the internet and on various websites and ... this guidance is worth following". At least they can get something right.

Part 31.1(2) of the Civil Procedure Rules says, “This Part applies to all claims except a claim on the small claims track”. Parking charge cases would be heard in the “Small Claims” part of the County Courts.

PS. From another thread ...

ManxRed wrote: »

Graham White Solicitors are under investigation by the Solicitors Regulation Authority for sending hundreds if not thousands of these letters out ... without ever putting a single one in front of a judge.

AltheHibby

Yep, that would be us mob. Part 31 doesn't apply, so the best thing they do is alert you to our presence so that you can get good help.