Preparedness for when

Frugalsod

GreyQueen wrote: »

Even if we re-visit a major Depression, or are beggared in a war, they could be in jeopardy.

We are already in a depression. While official unemployment is mid single digits as a percentage this masks the millions of zero hours people who do not count as unemployed.

In the US real unemployment is closer to 20% than the official figures because they do not count people out of work for more than 2 years and if less than that you actually have to be actively looking and if you live in many areas the numbers of vacancies are almost none existent. So why look? Plus with many people on two or more part time jobs to cope they are counted three times as employed. Even so the fall in US unemployment figures is mostly down to people no longer looking for work as they have been unemployed for more than 2 years.

Greece has unemployment in some cities close to 60% and even overall the unemployment is close to 26%. Spain is not much better, in fact many reasons that their figures are so good is that so many people have emigrated. How many people from the Baltic states, Ireland and southern Europe have you met on your day to day travels? I have seen more Spaniards working here than ever before. Many Portuguese have emigrated to Mozambique and Brazil because of the language.

The problem is that to really fix the economies of the world the debt levels have to fall dramatically. Yet nothing is being done about that because the banks are the biggest political donors. Until there is a dramatic clean up of political funding then there will never be a proper recovery.

moneyistooshorttomention

fuddle wrote: »

When faced with near rock bottom there is only one instinct that kicks in and that is to survive. S*d the labels and all that jazz. When it goes awfully wrong you act to survive first then act to maintain that survival and build again.

You can't really ponder how a person will act because it's down to what that 'rock bottom' is but I can tell you that act you will and in a way that is needed to live.

I fully understand that this is how many (most?) people think and they will "survive at all costs". My thoughts centre round those who think "There are some prices too high to pay and turning into a "survivor at all costs" and not living in a reasonably civilised and 'gentle' society" might hit their self-respect very hard or they might find it too "harsh" to have to spend the vast majority of their time/effort just surviving (ie rather than actually living iyswim).

My own feeling is that there has to be "flowers and wine", as well as "bread" and that self-respect about having obtained the "flowers and wine" by having honestly/ethically worked and paid for it, rather than having to choose between:

- working every hour God sends for it (when its only supposed to take a normal amount of workhours to obtain)

OR

- breaking through all normal "bounds" and just taking what is required for the "wine and flowers" regardless of whether its been done in a particularly ethical way

That is what I think will prove a very real dilemma to some people IF a Crash Comes. Some people honestly would debate within their own mind whether they were prepared to put in "huge long workweek" to get what a "normal workweek" should provide on the one hand or turn into "a bit less than a standard civilised human being" on the other hand and decide not to take either option and wonder what on earth to do next in those circumstances. This will prove a very real and concrete dilemma to some people.

So, just what DO you do next if you decide not to have a "huge long workweek" for what a "normal work week" should provide AND that you will remain "standard civilised human being"? Maybe other people are more idealistic than myself and think "We would all work co-operatively with each other to find a way to maintain a normal length workweek and civilised behaviour and have a normal standard of living (ie by pretty standard late 20th century standards = nothing special about it, just bogstandard paying the bills/heating the home okay/eating okay/etc).

I honestly think we do need a debate about how people are to lead a normal/civilised/'gentle' lifestyle IF the SHTF and not work along lines of "Nature red in tooth and claw ...and that includes us personally" OR work ourselves into the ground trying for Life As Normal.

I know that, as one individual, my own personal mind boggles a lot at a Hobsons Choice situation of becoming a "Nature red in tooth and claw" sorta person (nope...wont do) OR "working myself into the ground" sort of person either (nope...wont do that either) and honestly wonder what I would do if the SHTF and think its a valid subject for debate for those who refuse to take either of those options (ie because I do believe there are plenty of people who have already rejected either of those two options).

ginnyknit

Kezlou you can't mention marrow custard and not tell more:rotfl:

bubs, so technically in your static caravan you have a lot of the preps in place ie cooking and heating. Do you have ingenious ways of storing things? Im interested as I may have to make rather extreme new life plans due to Hubbys health problems. I dont intend to stay here alone and want to research other options of where to live. However I have an awful lot of belongings to dispose of which will raise the necessary funds in that event. I cannot sit here in cloud cuckoo land and ignore it all.

Fuddle, Im a blanket collector too, hm mostly and they seem to multiply faster than I can find home to give them to. Hubby has an elderley pink cellular blanket which he loves rather too much and actually calls Pinky! he is a little old for a blanky but it does keep him warm on his bad days, I think his thermostat is broken.

GreyQueen

ginnyknit wrote: »

Fuddle, Im a blanket collector too, hm mostly and they seem to multiply faster than I can find home to give them to. Hubby has an elderley pink cellular blanket which he loves rather too much and actually calls Pinky! he is a little old for a blanky but it does keep him warm on his bad days, I think his thermostat is broken.

I can relate to that. I have an entirely childish fondness of the chocolate brown fun-fur blanket I purchased 2nd hand a couple of years ago, and which is over the top of my bed for extra snuggliness. Blankies rock.

******Flying after-work visit before running out to archery and to visit a friend on way home.********

Re how you'd live in a world without the amenities, and would you be prepared to live a primitive lifestyle, without the grace notes of civilisation...............I'd say I'd scrabble with the last ounce of my energy to stay alive, to protect those I loved, to keep on keeping on for one more day.

Most people would. It's maladaptive as a species to say X, Y and Z has to be just-so or I'll turn my face to the wall and just die rather than compromise my standards. Doesn't often happen IRL, and when it does, it's usually the byproduct of extreme religiousity.

Most of us, most of the time, would fight tooth and nail to keep going, in the hope that surviving one more day will see the corner turned, life on the cusp of improving. I think most of us probably woudn't be here if our ancestors had said to themselves Y'know, we're wretched peasants living in wretched poverty, no chance of that ever improving, why bother to marry and reproduce, work and strive, we're lost before we start.

My 'peasant' family has doctors and teachers in its current generation. Not bad as most of us were illiterates 3-4 generations ago. Plenty of smarts built into our family which didn't get much exercise back in the olden days, but things are better now. Good job all the ag-labourers and housemaids and skivvies didn't quit but carried on striving.

Of course, if you're prepared to sit passively and virtuously whilst the world around you goes to pot, even to the point of not raising a hand to defend yourself from violence, well, you may be a saint.

I'm not a saint, I'm a very bliddy-minded sinner. Time enough for flowers and wine if/ when things improve. Meanwhile, I'd be aiming to survive as best I can, and if that means doing some things which aren't nice, lawful, or decent - tough.

moneyistooshorttomention

An understandable viewpoint I know...and its another take on it that my own personal preference is to remain "myself" (and I like to think of "myself" as being a reasonable/nice sort of person and really don't want to have to think of myself personally in a worse light than that). If a strictly "personal" situation arises where someone is trying to "pull one on me", then I will whack and whack harder than many and have had to do so a couple of times and have one of those situations on my hands right now, but its because the "other party" is in the wrong and not down to its a "them or me for sheer survival situation", but because I don't want a wrongdoer to put me down and, at those points, then gawdhelpthem.

Do ya' think there will be a Soylent Green "solution" available for all those that dig heels in and refuse to compromise their standards because as at that moment in time/for the foreseeable future survival and self-respect would be in headlong battle between each other within our own heads?

Maybe I'm a pessimist and its true that, if the "downtrodden but decent" in days of yore thought "Life will always be hopeless and hard" they would have given up on the spot and we would never have got to Normal Life As We Know It (ie the late 20th century then....).

Guessing this brings us back to "If SHTF and Normal Life goes down the swanee" how do we rate the chances of ever "getting back to normal?". Maybe those who would keep on keeping on would do so partly because they did feel, at some level, that Life Would Return To Normal at some point (if not in their lifetime) and were prepared to carry on in the hope that it would do so for someone (if not for them personally).

So...do you think that Post Peak Oil etc etc and all that is a "temporary blip" and the Steady Onward and Upward March of History will resume at some point in the future and, if so, how long it would be before we first "got back to normal civilised standards" and then, beyond that, progressed?

Margaret54

GreyQueen you always talk with such wisdom. Love to read your posts my dear

daz378

barring a shtf event th is country will bump along the bottom slight periods of growth (fueled by debt) and then small falls as we pay it back. I to have public sector pension ... i think the council doubles what i put in...but we may be privatised next year and we may lose the pension, only have 14 years in, may have to save up myself in different ways, if i can afford it

pumpkinlife

moneyistooshorttomention wrote: »

Guessing this brings us back to "If SHTF and Normal Life goes down the swanee" how do we rate the chances of ever "getting back to normal?". Maybe those who would keep on keeping on would do so partly because they did feel, at some level, that Life Would Return To Normal at some point (if not in their lifetime) and were prepared to carry on in the hope that it would do so for someone (if not for them personally).

So...do you think that Post Peak Oil etc etc and all that is a "temporary blip" and the Steady Onward and Upward March of History will resume at some point in the future and, if so, how long it would be before we first "got back to normal civilised standards" and then, beyond that, progressed?

I don't know about anyone else, but I broadly agree with John Michael Greer (of the blog The Archdruid Report) that we are facing 'catabolic collapse'. There's a good explanation of it here:

http://thearchdruidreport.blogspot.co.uk/2011/01/onset-of-catabolic-collapse.html

We are facing long term decline that will be punctuated by brief upswings in our fortunes, but the general trend will be towards lower energy, lower population, lower consumption - and lower human life expectancy. He rejects the idea that a technology, or a social movement, or an alien intervention will 'save us' as incredibly unlikely looking at the previous track of human existence. Not impossible, but not worth a punt. He also rejects that it is going to be a peaceful, orderly descent.

Still, it won't all be bad. Humans had worthwhile lives before the oil age, we will again.

Frugalsod

How to get your own perfect bug out vehicle in 4 easy steps.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c0FlVf-Al2Y

moneyistooshorttomention

I tend to agree with him and therefore imo it would be pretty pointless, assuming he is correct, to "lower standards" and do a "nature red in tooth and claw" way of surviving if Life was never going to be Normal again I would feel.