make do and mend for tougher times

GreyQueen

kidcat wrote: »

fuddle - poll tax was basically ( I wasnt that old so not an expert) the idea that instead of each house paying for council services, each person had to pay instead. Everyone became liable and I remember there were riots and people went to jail for non payment.
I am sure someone can give better picture than I can, I just remember the horror people had of it and the troubles at the time. My mum cried at the time as we simply could not pay.

Back before the Poll Tax, England, Scotland and Wales had something called "the rates" which was taxation at a local level for local services, based on the ratable value of your house. The bigger the house, the higher the rates.

This was widely-regarded as unjust, the oft-cited example being the single pensioner in the large home paying a lot more than a smaller home which might have several working people in it (e.g. a couple with an adult working child/ working children).

The fact that the poor person in the big house had a perfectly valid option (downsizing) was rarely-discussed. And thus was born the Tory monstrosity which was publicly-called the Community Charge but was immediately identified by the media and the public as the Poll Tax. There had been Poll Taxes before, in previous centuries and they had all ended in disaster. The Tories of the 1980s were told about the precedents for disaster and massive civil unrest by their own advisers. They wouldn't listen. I imagine that there are some Cassandras in public office trying desperately to stop this current shower's plans.......and they're right to be very afraid.

Years after the event, leaked government paperwork revealed that Thatcher and her ministers always called it the Poll Tax in private, although I can still see and hear them in memory protesting that it wasn't Poll Tax, it was Community Charge, as if that made the indefensible somehow better.

It was introduced in Scotland in the financial year 1988-89, one year ahead of it's introduction in England. I lived there at the time and was in the thick of it. The Tartan Test Bed, it was dubbed. It was rocket-fuel for the Scots Nats as the Tories had been voted out of every Scottish consitituency in the general election of 1987 but they still ruled from the Scottish Office. I can still remember the rage............. oh, the burning rage.

Everyone who was 18 and breathing had to pay the Poll Tax. Student? SAHM? No income whatsoever? Never mind, you have to pay it. So, a working feller with a SAHM wife ( a working lady with a SAHH) had to pay Poll Tax x 2.

It failed. I helped in my small way.

Our LA's Council Tax training officer explained to me (the expletives are my own) that the Council Tax is the !!!!!! offspring of the Poll Tax and the Rates. It is 50% calculated on the value of the home and 50% on the assumption of 2 adults in the home. This is why the single occupancy discount (1 adult) is 25% not 50%. It's a bad solution to a worse problem and about to get even more ridicululous.

My 75% of the council tax on a Band A property is just over 1 month's net income each year. If my LA reduces this discount or removes it altogether, or increases the tax overall, I shall be seeing even more of my limited spending power disappearing into taxation. I already get to live on less than half of what I actually earn (national and local taxation taxes the rest). Which will mean for any poor s0d trying to make a living selling me goods or services, that the chances of survival dip still further.

kidcat wrote: »

WCS - its so worrying, I wonder what all these people will do, will they simply fall into arrears. And if they do can the HA/evict them?

I know that a private LL can evict for rent arrears but can a social LL? Will they not have a responsibilty to rehouse them if they evict them.

Will there at least be a period whereby if you put in for a smaller house you are exempt while you wait for one to become available?

It all seems so wrong is there no common sense any more?

Kidkat, to evict a council tenant, the LL has to get a judge to grant "possession" of the property by the LL. The judge can refuse to allow possession, or allow "suspended possession" which would be a set of terms which, if the tenant kept them, would prevent the possession going through. Eviction is only possible if full possession is first obtained, and the tenant hasn't left by the designated date, whereupon the LL goes back to court to get a Warrant of Eviction, which has to be executed by a court officer and the LL's staff. This is for England, anyway, don't know about the rest of the country.

I have to hope that the district judges who hear such cases would exercise compassion and discretion to the max. It is currently very hard to get them to agree to full possession anyway.

It's a different kettle of fish in the private sector. LL can go for a Section 8 (proving 2 or more months' arrears) in which case possession is mandatory and the judge cannot exercise any discretion at all, or for a Section 21, the catch-all 2 months notice to end an assured shorthold tenancy. There is no legal defense against a properly-worded S21 served with the correct notice peridod and anyone who gets one should immediately take it to their LA to get their housing advisers to check it over for legality.

And, if evicted for rent arrears, it is no shoo-in that you'll get rehoused. The Homelessness Act will be applied and it may well be that the evicted person/ household, don't tick the boxes on vulnerabilty so are eligible for advice-only from the LA.

It may be that they are in the vulnerable category in which case they'll be placed somewhere temporarily whilst a homelessness investigation is launched. The LA will go into everything and if there is a finding of "intentionally homeless" i.e. they consider that the person did something to cause the homelessness, or failed to take reasonable steps to prevent it, they are absolved of their responsibilities. If you have children in those circs, you'd be given 42 days to vacate the temp accomodation, but Social Services would have to be informed and would probably look at rehousing parents with dependant children. If you're childless, you'd get 30 days to vacate temp accomodation and then you're on your own.

:mad: If you're not scared spitless reading that, then you should be, IMO.

craigywv wrote: »

excuse my ignorance, but what is council tax is it what we call rates in Northern Ireland? i find it shocking that if thats what it is people on benifits will be paying towards them, how can they when they get so little to begin with, sorry if i offend anyone but i really dont know what it is.

See above. And no offence, just a bit of envy.;)

Elche, it's lovely to hear of your day out and please don't fell bad about sharing. We toughies share the ups and the down and vent and support each other. It's what we do here.

Right, after penning a small treatise, I just have time for a quick cuppa before running out the door. Better salt away some spondulicks and some tinned potatoes, because it's (Tory) party time.

Laters, GQ x

PS Here's your Quote of the Day, from a certain worthy gentleman called Aneurin (Nye) Bevan, who is no doubt rotating in his grave at considerably faster than 33 rpm:

No amount of cajolery, and no attempts at ethical or social seduction, can eradicate from my heart a deep burning hatred for the Tory Party. So far as I am concerned they are lower than vermin.

And that was over 50 years ago, people. I'm off to get some rat poison, myself.

Mrs_Chip

Kittie

I don't think there is a ovewhelming view that all pensioners are all ok here, I think we all know that is not true.

However, I think it is true that some pensioners, some working families and some families living on benefits seem to be very comfortable, whilst others is the same situation are not. It is the inequality of this situation that makes me cross - how can some be scraping around to make ends meet while others in the same circumstances are able to afford to live very well, with no care for the future or who is paying for their lifestyle?

I totally agree that anyone who has worked all their lives and been careful and saved for later life should not be penalised for it, however I do think that if some are comfortably off they should not receive extra benefits that should go to the less well off. How this line is drawn is difficult, I know the system we have now seems not to work. How you make sure the right people get the money they need - well we have real examples of how badly that works on this very thread.

We are in a very fortunate position in that when we get our pensions we will have a lot more to live on than we do now, and I would happily forgo my state pension if I knew it would go to someone who needed it, but who knows what the situation will be in 6 or 7 years time (when my work pension starts) or in 13 years when my state pension kicks in?

jpscloud

I love your name for your oven fuddle, very appropriate in honour of Bolt's olympic victory as well!

I made myself practice with the stand Mrs Chip, it does take a bit of getting used to for sure. I haven't had any mishaps, even though the stand does seem a bit flimsy.

Just one more bit of advice... don't leave the lid on when things have finished cooking as it will go very steamy (only a problem if you are doing something meant to be crispy of course).

fuddle

I agree with what you say kittie. I'm an optimist too, or I try to be. I'm learning without any influence or guidance from my family how to stand on my own feet, how the heck it is I can get my family through the times of very little money. I don't have any people of retirement age around me so I can't forge an opinion on that area. What I can say is I compare my attitude towards retirement with those of the girls that are my acquaintances.

They, on the whole, think it's disgusting that the state might not support them in their retirement. They are saying that they cannot afford a pension plan. They are saying it's tough now, how are they expected to save for their own retirement. They say we shouldn't have to work till we're 68+ and it's not fair. While I understand that point of view I don't agree.

We don't have too much money to spare. I have taken it upon myself to start a pension fund at £10 per month this week. Yes, pittance but I have started and I'm determined to stand on my own two feet in retirement. All these people saying they don't have the spare money mean, in my opinion, they are not prepared to give up their shoe fund, nights out socialising, cars and costs, internet, sky, cigarettes and bottles of wine, takeaways etc. to claw back some money to put into a pension. They don't see it as a priority, where I do.

We are in receipt of tax credits and I hate it, I worry we're going to owe money all the time. I cannot wait until I'm able to earn money through childminding and not have to top up our house hold income through tax credit help. My peers on the other hand say "what's the point of working because i'll lose my tax credits!"

This is the attitude of young mums around me, in my village. They aren't work shy, they are normal every day people with morals, they're good people but they are baby sat through life. They have an expectation the the government should help and will help.

We need a change in attitude. We need our work ethic back but there needs to be a balance and people need to to have access to help to keep the roof on their heads when things are dire. I love that we have a system for that, what I don't like is it's being abused. What happens when things are abused in life... they get withdrawn.

Blame the government I guess but I'm blaming society and our collective lack of get up and go. Where has our survival instinct gone?

I too have become too opinionated here. I just hope we can have a debate about it without it turning into a slanging match aand we loose our thread again.

Be mindful of that folks because I'm lost without this thread.

Byatt

Just came back on quickly, to say sorry guys, didn't mean to put the cat amongst the pigeons. I thought it would be useful to be armed with information and was so surprised our council had "put it out there" and I had no idea things were going to be so bad. I'm glad I do know now though.

I have a small pension, which does affect benefits, but I am so glad to get it as it is with my work, the small amount of independence and non reliance on the state that makes a difference to my emotional and psychological well being. The thing that upsets me the most is the change in pension age for women of my age, which occurred in the recent years (was it 3 or 5 years ago) and hasn't given me and other women time to do anything or plan for a later retirement. I would have been retired next year and whilst my worries would not be over, they would at least be reduced.

Kittie, I thought I would be ok when I retired, both my husband and I planned for it, but concentrated on him, not me...my stupid mistake. Your description of a poor working class life is a common one, I recall it well. My parents did it all. I have no beef with the pensioners but neither do I like the wording "hand outs", I still pay tax and worked from 16 with just a brief interlude when home schooling daughter, then later becoming ill after marriage breakdown. However, I have always tried to earn something. ebaying etc

The thing is it's not a competition as to who is worse or better off or who worked or prepared or sacrificed more, as past sacrifice is not a measure of future security or prosperity. It's about the present.

And Oh Lord, if I wasn't an optimist, well, I'd be long gone. Being an optimist and being afraid are not exclusive, fear can galvanise someone into action, and it has done for me many a time...from getting my degree in 2009 (and although it didn't get me a job, it has helped me in confidence and a belief in myself) to starting a small business last year.

Mrs_Chip

I find the lid stand for the halogen too light and I spend ages trying to slide the lid in with it skating allover the worktop - it may be because I am left-handed or more impolitely, cack-handed! If I had any sense i would put the stand on a cloth to stop it sliding :rotfl:.

I am sure we can discuss these contentious things without it degenerating into a slanging match - we all come from different places and to some extent different times, and if we didn't have different perspectives on things I would be wondering why!

ETA - and we don't want to get like that bunch of baying bloodhounds that call themselves our govt do we?

mardatha

Well said Nye Bevan and I totally agree !! (although I feel much the same about Labour now lol) But we're missing one thing here - there are far far more of us than there is of them - but we need to use that fact- and I think people haven't got the guts for it any more. Too many years of soft living, and too many people immersed in the telly or thinking it won't happen to them, it just happens to "benefit scroungers".. this is where that lovely thing called Karma comes out to play
My husband has a works pension of £85 a week - which is not enough to live on and yet messes up everything for us. It might've helped if we owned the house but we're council tenants and so it all goes in rent and CT. I'm not moaning because that's how its always been - but I will be moaning if it gets any worse

mardatha

Brilliant post fuddle re survival instinct. If all your life you've had a cushion of benefits protecting you then yes you will lose it. If on the other hand you've had days or weeks when you got nothing at all and just had to live on what's in the store cupboard... then you become an OS-er. If you've had days or weeks - and talking about our grannies & G/grannies here - when you had nothing at all and had to find food or watch your kids go to bed crying with hunger, or be evicted into the street without notice - then thats where you develop a survival instinct. So we need to get that back without hopefully going through suffering to get there. And we need to stick together in here like never before.

Possession

I've just read some really excellent posts, intelligently written and somehow all agreeing though coming from differing view points.
I'll be the first to admit I don't know much about the whole benefit system, having only really become involved in it at all in the last couple of years when DH had to claim JSA for a couple of months and we became entitled to WTC and CTC.
The system very obviously doesn't work properly now and I don't know how it should be fixed - not sure anyone else does either. It does need fixing though, as there simply is not enough money for it to work. The obvious way to start fixing it is to iron out all the ways the system is being abused. I've never voted Tory but I don't envy them this task and I suspect it's a task any party in power would be forced to undertake. How to cut out the 'wasted' benefits while supporting those who really need it? It's going to be a work in progress I suspect.
The additional problem is, as Fuddle says, the flawed system has caused a problem with our society where we expect to be looked after. I'm guessing this problem is going to be even harder and more painful to solve but it must be done.

recoverydust

prepareathome wrote: »

Nar we want to put them all in social or private housing - the worst conditions mind you and the make them live on benefits, but not straight away, they have to wait while lost files are found, money that should have been paid wasn't. Visit upon them every indignity that the welfare state has ever visited on anyone........

It should be law if you want to be an MP you have to live like this for a couple of years at the very least, oh yes and even if they are healthy they must be treated as if they have a Mental Health Problem or ME/Fibro etc......and have all the fun that goes with that (if they are healthy to start with I doubt they will be by the end).

Even though they knew they just had to get through 2 -3 years ad then things would get better its a long time when you are living on welfare and it might just open a few eyes. Sadly I know a lot would shake off the memories the minute they walk through the doors of Westminster and forget all about the awfulness.

:beer: totally agreeing with the above
xx