Do I have any options left in this horrible SNAD case?

Tunstallstoven

Hi all

I recently bought an acoustic guitar which was described as "like new", "hardly used", "minor blemishes". On arrival, the guitar was quite far from any of this and had it been described accurately I would not have bid so high. After paying (but before receiving), the seller also told he that he had taken the guitar on tour in the USA!

When I got the guitar and tried to contact the seller to discuss this, he simply never responded. He had in fact told me (and the listing stated) that he was moving to Canada.

I therefore raised a dispute with ebay. They said i could return the guitar and even offered to pay the return postage! Great! However, I asked several times what would happen if the seller was not in the country anymore and therefore not able to accept the returned guitar. Ebay kept on being evasive with their answers and I was not prepared to return the guitar until I had an answer. Complicating the matter was the jubilee weekend/BHs which meant I had to make my decision by the 1st June instead of the 5th (when the case closed). So I asked them plainly and clearly one last time.... No response. I chased it. No response. The time passed and the case closed automatically. Then they started responding again...!!!

They said they had not received my other emails, even though I have acknowledgements saying "We have relieved your email and will respond shortly, etc.". I have other info which would make it quite certain that they did receive these emails....

There are plenty of other details which I'll eave for now so that this does not turn into a novel. But to end on a laugh, in the very last email i received from them, the guy starts to say that he's sorry to hear I did not receive the guitar and that I should contact my bank for a refund and for help in stopping internet fraud! He obviously hadn't read the previous messages then!!!!

Anyhow, I'm at the end of my tether with it all, and to make things worse eBay apparently have no complaints procedure.

I was hoping someone here might be able to help me carry on with this one, as I really don;t know what to do next.

Thanks for listening,

Max

No_Eye_Deer

Where the seller is, is of no importance in reclaiming the money.

You have only to prove you returned the guitar (tracked) to win the case. Even attempted delivery to their registered address would of been good enough to win the case.

I am guessing that the case has now closed in the seller favour?

.

theonlywayisup

As No Eye Deer says, you only need to show delivery/attempted delivery or refusal to win your case.

Why did you let it close? When the case says 'return it' (and they even offer to pay) then I cannot for the life of me understand why you dithered.

If you wanted to understand the possible outcomes of you returning, why didn't you phone Ebay or post here? Why persist with emails when they weren't answering your question?

There was nothing complicated about the Jubille weekend. You were told to send it back and you didn't.

Straightforward really.

sham63

Have to agree with the responses so far. You should have sent it back when told to do so - everything needs to be done 'by the book' regardles of the logic!

What is the guitar like to play? This is much more important than the condition (unless you only want to hang it on the wall).

In the past I have returned a guitar because the condition wasn't as good as described, however it played & sounded great, and I regret my 'kneejerk' reaction of returning it & wish I had kept it.

Tunstallstoven

No_Eye_Deer wrote: »

Where the seller is, is of no importance in reclaiming the money.

You have only to prove you returned the guitar (tracked) to win the case. Even attempted delivery to their registered address would of been good enough to win the case.

I really wish I had known this at the time, and that I had come to the forums then for advice. I also wish that ebay CS had clarified this. But every time I asked them, they replied with "You receive the refund after the guitar has been SUCCESSFULLY returned to the seller." And that's why I was hesitant.

No_Eye_Deer wrote: »

I am guessing that the case has now closed in the seller favour?

It has indeed.


@theonlywayisup. As above to your questions. You're right, I should have come here or done something else. However, I had been emailing ebay prior to this and their responses had been quick, sometimes within a couple of hours. When they failed to respond to my final emails, you are right; I should have called or come here. I'm not sure now why I didn't tbh. Lesson learnt.

@sham63. It plays quite well, although it is tough to say how well because it is in need of a re-string and a set up. I'm trying to forget the aesthetics and move on. I'm just really frustrated that the seller described it as he did when the description was so far off the mark.


Thanks for all the replies.

Max

Tunstallstoven

I just wanted to update this if possible...

As stated above, i think the advice I got from eBay CS was quite misleading, and in some senses plain wrong. I've since looked at the terms and conditions and I think they are quite grey as well...:

"If we resolve a SNAD case in the buyer's favour, we will in most circumstances ask the buyer to return the item to the seller, before we arrange for the buyer to be refunded. In those cases, we’ll ask the buyer to promptly provide proof of delivery to us; for items valued over £150, we'll also require the buyer to provide signature confirmation. Return postage will be at the buyer's expense. The seller must accept the returned item. Once we have confirmed that either the item has been returned to the seller or the item has been sent to the seller but the seller has not accepted the delivery, eBay will arrange for the purchase price plus original postage costs to be refunded to the buyer through PayPal. "

It starts by saying "The seller must accept the returned item." It goes on to say: "or the item has been sent to the seller but the seller has not accepted the delivery,"....

My interpretation from that would be that the seller is there but saying "I don't accept this delivery". If the seller has moved abroad, to my mind he is not choosing to not accept the delivery; he's simply not there to make that choice.

Don't get me wrong, I can see the other side of the coin. By not telling ebay he has moved, he is in a way not accepting the item because he has not put himself in a position to be able to accept it.

But I don't think it is completely clear and I think both interpretations could apply to the statement.... I was not willing to send the guitar back and possibly end up without a refund AND without the guitar! So i asked ebay for clarification of their own policies and their CS support told me that the guitar had to be "successfully" returned.

The more I think about it the more annoyed I am.... I'd really like to take some further action on the case but don't know where or how. Apparently ebay do not have a complaints procedure (unbelievable!).

So does anyone have any other ideas?

Many thanks

Max

powerful_Rogue

I returned an item once. Gave paypal the tracking number and they issued me a refund.

Seller thought he was being clever by not accepting the delivery and a month later royal mail delivered the item back to me! This was a fgew years ago and never heard anything back from the seller!

duckeggblue

Can I ask why the condition wasnt visible in the photos?

hermum

The seller must accept the returned item. Once we have confirmed that either the item has been returned to the seller or the item has been sent to the seller but the seller has not accepted the delivery
If the seller had left the country then the guitar would have been returned to you & you would have got your refund as the seller had not accepted delivery.
You could try appealing but not understanding the rules may not be a good enough reason for not returning.

forgotmyname

If you had sent it back with a return address you may have got the goods and the refund.

Then let the seller worry about getting it back. He will have to play opn your terms. But legally its still his item if you got a refund.

Tunstallstoven

powerful_Rogue wrote: »

I returned an item once. Gave paypal the tracking number and they issued me a refund.

Seller thought he was being clever by not accepting the delivery and a month later royal mail delivered the item back to me! This was a fgew years ago and never heard anything back from the seller!

Sounds great! What a bonus!

duckeggblue wrote: »

Can I ask why the condition wasnt visible in the photos?

There was only one photo. Not the best quality, and not showing the whole guitar. More photos would have been more revealing, but tbh some of the wear would have been quite tough to capture (fret wear, for example). I did ask for more photos as I was in a lot of communication with the seller prior to the sale. He re-iterated what it said in the listing, that the guitar was more or less like new and had hardly been played. (Yes, another lesson learnt!).


@hermum. I can see what you are saying, but I still think the way it is worded is grey and open to different interpretations. Seems that ebay CS read it the same way as i do, because they kept telling me the guitar had to be SUCCESSFULLY returned to the seller.