Question on S21 timing

zas31

I have been served S21 2.5 months before the end of fixed AST. The accompanying letter stated that if the renewal terms are not agreed 1 month before the end of AST I have to move out by the end of AST.

This effectively gives me a 1 month notice instead of the statutory 2 months. Furthermore, such arrangement may be viewed as a tool to pressure me into accepting unfavourable terms.

Am I missing something? If not, who should the appeal be directed to?

BitterAndTwisted

No, you don't have to move out by the end of the fixed-term. If you stay one day beyond that date a statutory periodic tenancy automatically arises. You're being given two and half moth's notice that the landlord may choose to apply to the court for possession. I don't see how that can be translated into only one month's notice.

This correspondence has been sent to you to encourage you to feel that you must sign another fixed-term AST.

What precisely do you want to have happen here? And have you been in contact with your landlord to sound out what their intentions are? They either want possession or a tenant, they cant have both.

jamie11

This is a common ploy by some agents to enable them to charge both you and the landlord extra fees for paperwork. Speak to your landlord if possible, he may not even know about this. There is no need to renew your contract if you are happy to have a statutory periodic tenancy, you lose no rights and actually gain some.

G_M

This post here explains your rights at the end of the fixed term, and what the landlord/agent must do if they want you to leave.

zas31

G_M wrote: »

This post here explains your rights at the end of the fixed term, and what the landlord/agent must do if they want you to leave.

Sorry, but it does not answer my question. So, if an S21 has been served, say on month 6, what stops the LL from contacting the tenant on the last day of AST and asking them to leave the following day?

Since S21 does not actually ask the tenant move out by certain date, then what is the procedure for the LL to say "now I have decided you should move out" and what is the minimum notice that the LL should give the tenant in this case? One day in the example above, or even 1 month in OP, is clearly not sufficient, is it?

franklee

A notice that the landlord may want his property back is of little practical use as a tenant is hardly going to incur the costs and hassle of moving based on that he might be asked to leave. Really the two months section 21 notice period is meant to be time for the tenant to arrange to move.

Of course as everyone has said already the tenant doesn't have to move at the end of the S21 notice period, he can sit tight till the landlord gets a possession order or indeed even longer till the bailiffs drag him out but that doesn't make a tenant look good. Many tenants would not want to be placed into that position and risk their reference being sullied.

Therefore if the OP is told a month before the end of the fixed term that the landlord wants possession after all then he only has a month to move before the landlord can apply for a possession order. So I agree with the OP that it effectively gives him one months notice instead of the statutory 2 months which is exactly what these "Sword of Damocles" precautionary S21 notices are designed to do. It is, as the OP wrote, tool to pressure the OP into accepting unfavourable terms.

It's a tricky one to deal with, I'd just be keeping the letter and not answer, see what they do about it. The letter gives the tenant good reason not to have moved as it wasn't clearly asking for possession. Personally I think that's a good defence against the S21 but at the very least it should mean that if the landlord seeks a possession order the tenant won't have to pay costs. Also it can be used to explain to the next landlord what happened in case it goes on the tenant's reference.

zas31

BitterAndTwisted wrote: »

What precisely do you want to have happen here? And have you been in contact with your landlord to sound out what their intentions are? They either want possession or a tenant, they cant have both.

The LA is known for asking a ridiculously high rents on the basis that "they believe those rates can be acheievd in the market". The situation I want to avoid is the terms of the new contract are not agreed 1 month before the end of AST. According to LA letter in this case I must vacate the property within 1 month.

How do I avoid this?

Werdnal

The s21 does not end the tenancy, only a court order can do that. If you choose not to leave on the last day of the tenancy, the 2 months notice has already expired, so the LL can apply to court on that day (if they so wish, but remember they may be blissfully unaware the agent has sent you a notice!). However, courts are invariably backed-up with applications, so it can take another 4-6 weeks to reach to top of the list. If S21 is correctly completed, and court application is accepted, judge will issue a possession order.

This will end the tenancy, but even then, a tenant can choose to ignore it and await the baillifs knock to throw them out - this could take about 4 weeks or so on top!

The S21 is the first step in an eviction process that could take around 4-5 months from the issue of the notice, to you being out on your ear!

However, as mentioned above, agents often use the threat of the S21 to beat the tenant into signing a renewal and paying their fat renewal fee - No doubt they also charge the LL to renew your contract too!!!

The agent cannot apply for a court possession order, the LL has to do this themselves, and you may even find your LL is ignorant of the fact that agent is pressuring you to sign, when in fact you do not need to. A Statutory Periodic Tenancy automatically arises the day after the fixed term ends. Agents rarely explain this - why would they when they can charge you and the LL for signing a new agreement - staff Christmas lunch doesn't come free you know!!

As suggested above, if you have an address for the LL, contact them direct, explain you want to stay but would prefer an SPT, and see if they will kick the agent into touch and stop them pestering you - you'll be saving the LL his fees too!

Agent's accompanying letter saying you must vacate is utter twaddle - they are talking out of their !!!!!s and trying to frighten you - or believe it or not, some agents are so ignorant of letting law that they might even believe they are correct in that statement!

franklee

zas31 wrote: »

Sorry, but it does not answer my question. So, if an S21 has been served, say on month 6, what stops the LL from contacting the tenant on the last day of AST and asking them to leave the following day?

Nothing other than you don't have to leave until the landlord obtains a court order which he can apply for the day after the S21's notice period ends. However this puts you in a stressful and difficult position as explained above, it may impact your references.

zas31 wrote: »

Since S21 does not actually ask the tenant move out by certain date, then what is the procedure for the LL to say "now I have decided you should move out" and what is the minimum notice that the LL should give the tenant in this case? One day in the example above, or even 1 month in OP, is clearly not sufficient, is it?

This is the problem with these precautionary S21's, after the S21 notice period is up the landlord can apply to court for possession without giving you any more notice as the S21 *was* your notice. However that's not much use if you didn't move as the agent/LL were offering a renewal. Basically they are exploiting a loophole in the law. It may be that saying you can stay after or at the same time as serving the S21 makes the S21 void (I think it does, many here do not) but that's a tricky argument so perhaps not practical to use except as a last resort.

jamie11

zas31 wrote: »

The LA is known for asking a ridiculously high rents on the basis that "they believe those rates can be acheievd in the market". The situation I want to avoid is the terms of the new contract are not agreed 1 month before the end of AST. According to LA letter in this case I must vacate the property within 1 month.

How do I avoid this?

The way to avoid it is to speak to the landlord and ignore the agent. The agent has no power to force you to leave, only the landlord can do that and to do so he must take you through a complicated possession case which will cost you nothing, the landlord is responsible for all the costs, only when he has a possession order are you obliged to move and even then you do not have to move until bailiffs arrive to remove you, none of this can be charged to you.

franklee

Werdnal wrote: »

The s21 does not end the tenancy, only a court order can do that. If you choose not to leave on the last day of the tenancy, the 2 months notice has already expired, so the LL can apply to court on that day (if they so wish, but remember they may be blissfully unaware the agent has sent you a notice!). However, courts are invariably backed-up with applications, so it can take another 4-6 weeks to reach to top of the list. If S21 is correctly completed, and court application is accepted, judge will issue a possession order.

This will end the tenancy, but even then, a tenant can choose to ignore it and await the baillifs knock to throw them out - this could take about 4 weeks or so on top!

The S21 is the first step in an eviction process that could take around 4-5 months from the issue of the notice, to you being out on your ear!

Yes technically all correct. However it doesn't address the stress of going though that and importantly how it will make the tenant look to future landlords. I would not want that lot on my references.