Taking children out of school a week before summer hols as I am disabled.

leosayer39

mrs_sparrow wrote: »

I agree, you could also write to the school and ask them why your holiday has been refused when other kids are having 20 days off and see what their reply is. You could them direct your concerns about this to the LEA.
Good point, worth a go

However, before you do this you need to be absolutely 110% certain that these parents are having their holidays authorised. We are going on a respite holiday next year, it is in term time as we are going overseas for it (they do not offer anything like it in the UK) and there was only certain times we could choose - all of them were in term time because US holidays do not run the same as ours and authorised or not, we will be going. So it might look to others that we will have an authorised holiday but actually, we will not. They have not given us one day authorised for the paralympics, they are not going to give us 10 days!!

Our school have no fining policy, I have read up on this and they can only fine if the school has a clear set out policy that advises of such and ours does not.
Didnt know that!
So they have to have a clear set out fining policy? Something in writing maybe?

While the school gives the fine, it is the LEA's job to collect the fine, so if you do not pay it, it is the LEA that will take you to court, not the school, and you can then go argue your case there.
Worth a punt

They also have to make it clear about after how many days they will fine.
So I would assume that these details might be in their fining policy document?

leosayer39

mrs_sparrow wrote: »

Leo Sayer - do they have this fining policy clearly set out or have they been told by letter?
Just told verbally, nothing is set out in writing

Please note: The local authority must publish a local code of conduct which sets out how the penalty notice scheme will work for all schools in the area. Write and ask for it as per DfE guidelines, however, it should be on their website and clear and accessible to all. If they do not have this policy then let the school 'fine' you as the school will not be taking you to court, the LEA does.
Just checked, Nothing on the schools website and nothing on the local authority website

http://www.education.gov.uk/schools/pupilsupport/behaviour/attendance/a00208166/penalty-notices

Also, please read this to ensure that penalties are being issued lawfully:

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2007/1867/contents/made

Pay particular attention to sections 3, 9, 14 and 23.
Will do, thanks for the links

Again, it is the LEA that is fining, not the school, so ALL schools in the area must have the same policy. If there is no fining policy in place in a neighbouring school then write and challenge the school. If you do not pay and they have not started proceedings within 42 days then the fine is withdrawn.
Didnt know any of the above

Some schools are using the threat of these fines to scare parents from taking their children out of school and the threat is unlawful can cannot be imposed - how many parents would challenge such a threat or just pay it without disputing it if it meant they got a cheaper holiday - so double check everything and challenge it if need be.
Will do

If your school/LEA has a high number of children that are removed for these religious holidays then this is probably why the fining policy is in place, as they will have a high number of absences and will want to keep as many children in school as possible.
Agreed

It could also be that the parents of the other kids know that the fines are unlawful and so just take the kids away anyway. No doubt those parents will say that they did not want Xmas/Easter holidays imposed onto their children and they are taking their children to celebrate their Religious holidays so the LEA will not challenge them or impose the fine for fear of them being called racist or discriminating against their religious beliefs.
This is exactly what is happening

However, if you can find out and be sure that they have their holidays authorised or they have been fined and it not followed through then you can challenge the fine on these grounds also.

Hope this helps.
It sure does and thanks for your help

leosayer39

Richie-from-the-Boro wrote: »

From next month the fines go up.

Not only the LEA, but a police constable, local authority officer, headteachers and those authorised by them [deputy and assistant head only] can issue penalty notices, this applies to maintained, academies, Free Schools, alternative provision and pupil referral units in England. The local authority must publish a local code of conduct which sets out how the penalty notice scheme will work for all schools in the area.
Nothing there yet, I will be watching closely for this information

The fine goes up next month to £50 to £60 for those who pay within 28 days, and from £100 to £120 for those who pay within 42 days, the revised regs are here.

All state schools can use penalty notices including maintained, academies, Free Schools, alternative provision and pupil referral units in England. The local authority must publish a local code of conduct which sets out how the penalty notice scheme will work for all schools in the area. It above applies to any parent who fails to ensure the regular attendance of their child of compulsory school age (5-16) who is registered at a state school or fails to ensure that their excluded child is not found in a public place during schools hours without a justifiable reason.

Registers would be marked as follows:

“H” for authorised family holiday, up to 10 school days
“F” for authorised extended leave (beyond 10 days)
“G” for unauthorised holiday/leave of absence

There are around 190 school days in a year, almost the same as the 175 days left available to you for for holidays / cultural / activities and family time. There are no prescribed 'reasons' however one exception is made as 'Ellej' in this thread knows - that where """families needing to spend time together to support each other during or after a crisis """ So in the old rules 100% of the decision making is with the head and in the new rules its no different. Its only in the area of 'over 10 days - extended leave of absence' that the SoS issues guidance to the head. Additionally in the old rules and in next months new rules the SoS directive to the Head clearly states :

As a rule, requests made for reasons such as availability of inexpensive holidays, availability of desired accommodation, or poor weather experienced during school holiday periods should not be authorised.
All excellent information

The fact of the matter is leosayer39 does indeed have a level playing field, his daughter asked and was refused. Others asked and were given authority based on the Heads judgement .. .. that is a level playing field.
Not in my eyes.
Does this mean that my grandkids have to change their religion to get suitable time off?

mrs_sparrow

leosayer - can you please tell is what happened regarding the holiday.

If the school have said we will fine you, send them a letter asking to see the the LEA's local code of conduct regarding fining - tell them you want a reply IN WRITING. Send the letter recorded delivery. And then wait for a reply.

If they tell you they will fine you then go to the LEA and ask them for their code of practice for all school in the area.

And then take the children on holiday and refuse to pay the fine.

Very naughty of the school. I can tell you something now, those parents will NOT have got their holidays authorised - however, they obviously know that they can fine all they want but the LEA does not follow the fines up.

Before you get taken to court you end up with a parenting contract which means you have to send your kids to school etc.... they will not do that for just 5 days.

On another note - if the school are fining themselves then this is a serious breach of the rules and needs reporting to the LEA, it is the LEA that collects the fines and it should be in place for all school - however, some can choose not to implement it. This is just a very snidey way to this head to stop parents taking their children on holiday in term times.

Because we are taking the children on a respite break for disabled children and their families - in the US as they do not offer these holidays here, however, they operate in US holiday and they are obviously different - I have been finding out a lot of information about this.

What is more, the fining policy was due to be bought in as compulsary but the Government have backtracked on it. You can find information on this on Google, it is the kids bathtime, I will post it later if no-one else does.

Richie-from-the-Boro

leosayer39 wrote: »

Richie-from-the-Boro wrote: »

From next month the fines go up.


~~~ snip ~~~

The fact of the matter is leosayer39 does indeed have a level playing field, his daughter asked and was refused. Others asked and were given authority based on the Heads judgement .. .. that is a level playing field.
Not in my eyes.
Does this mean that my grandkids have to change their religion to get suitable time off?

~~~ REM ~~~

Everyone knows that to judge is wrong, in any society however we need a final judge, ie, someone to judge when two parties disagree. In this case even the Government don't judge they leave that to the school head.

Racism or plain discrimination happens around us every day of our lives, people are blinded by religions and the discrimination it causes. People around the world are dying at the rate of many hundreds per minute as I write this missive because of racism and religious intolerance caused by prejudice [preconceived judgement or opinion].

We should all be wary of words written in this forum by anyone with such an evangelical bent and a clearly expressed prejudice. Seeking to portray this perceived inverse inequality as a religion or race issue is a wrong thing to do.

You have a level playing field, exactly the same level playing field as anyone else - that's what 'level playing field means' ! The fact that some ask and get, and you ask and didn't get - does not make it unfair. The headteacher entirely at his / her discretion makes a judgement call and must satisfy his / herself that there are special circumstances which warrant the leave - that's what a decision maker is for, making decisions That derision maker on a case-by-case basis determined the circumstances you gave were not 'special' enough and refused to grant your grandchildren leave of absence for the purpose of family holidays during term time.

Now I don't know what reasons your daughter gave, and I've no idea what the headteacher uses for criteria [the Education Department does not seek to prescribe what constitutes special circumstances .. .. this is for each school to decide] but, but the request did not reach the level of merit the head teacher required. and the request was refused. It seems to be the case that a loving granparent is only loving to the point where the holiday is cheap .. .. but not loving enough to pay the 'term time' full price to stay within the law.

The Hadj is October 24-29, 2012, Ramadan is somewhere between July 20, 2012 and August 19, 2012, and there are others. all these dates are not predictable in advance. The difference between this type of [your phrase] holiday and yours may be religious and from my point of view is as illegal under British law as your wish but the timings and time taken are different and understood.

Prejudice will make any view dishonest and untruthful, you can have your own opinion, but you cant have your own truth. You're view that those from those of other religion and race get favourable treatment because of their religion is probably nothing more than performing the Muslim Hadj or any of the other different religious pilgrimage. As an example one persons itinerary for Hajj 2009.....

13 November 2009 Depart from UK, Arrive in Jeddah, proceed to Makkah, check-in to hotel and perform Umrah
18 November 2009 Proceed to Madinah, check-in to hotel
22 November 2009 Leave Madinah
23 November 2009 Arrive in Aziziyyah, perform Umrah and stay in Aziziyyah
25 November 2009 8th Dhul-Hijjah – Go to Mina, begin the rites of Hajj
26 November 2009 9th Dhul Hijjah – Arafat, Muzdalifah
27 November 2009 10th Dhul Hijjah – Mina
28 November 2009 11th Dhul Hijjah – Mina
29 November 2009 12th Dhul Hijjah – Mina
30 November 2009 13th Dhul Hijjah – Leave Mina and proceed to Makkah, perform farewell Tawaf and leave for Jeddah, check-in to hotel
02 December 2009 Check out of hotel in Jeddah and proceed to airport for flight back to UK
03 December 2009 Arrive in to the UK

Level playing field - become a politician and sort it out. Until then be a good grandparent and do what it takes for your bairns - pay the 'in term price' price or lumber your own child with a Fixed Penalty Notice costing up to £100 for each of your grandchildren.

As to the ' OneYorkshireLass' comment about a Pakistani without gender who arranged a [heresay] arranged marriage - so what ? - that too would be wrong, and an immoral reason to misuse the law. You at least are not arguing in faviour of breaking the law, many many others in this thread are arguing for a selective choice to break the law.

OneYorkshireLass

mrs_sparrow wrote: »

Your post was incredibly spiteful for some bizarre reason (maybe jealousy!).

Huh? My post?

Richie-from-the-Boro

mrs_sparrow wrote: »

leosayer - can you please tell is what happened regarding the holiday.

If the school have said we will fine you, send them a letter asking to see the the LEA's local code of conduct regarding fining - tell them you want a reply IN WRITING. Send the letter recorded delivery. And then wait for a reply.

If they tell you they will fine you then go to the LEA and ask them for their code of practice for all school in the area.

And then take the children on holiday and refuse to pay the fine.

Very naughty of the school. I can tell you something now, those parents will NOT have got their holidays authorised - however, they obviously know that they can fine all they want but the LEA does not follow the fines up.

Before you get taken to court you end up with a parenting contract which means you have to send your kids to school etc.... they will not do that for just 5 days.

On another note - if the school are fining themselves then this is a serious breach of the rules and needs reporting to the LEA, it is the LEA that collects the fines and it should be in place for all school - however, some can choose not to implement it. This is just a very snidey way to this head to stop parents taking their children on holiday in term times.

Because we are taking the children on a respite break for disabled children and their families - in the US as they do not offer these holidays here, however, they operate in US holiday and they are obviously different - I have been finding out a lot of information about this.

What is more, the fining policy was due to be bought in as compulsory but the Government have backtracked on it. You can find information on this on Google, it is the kids bathtime, I will post it later if no-one else does.

mrs_sparrow .. .. you said .. .. """Because we are taking the children on a respite break for disabled children and their families"""

- you are in that privileged group I mentioned a eight threads ago that are allowed consideration for leave, and even extended leave
- your case and the argument leosayer39 is putting forward go together like creosote & crème
- nobody in their right or wrong mind wants the indignity of a Parenting Order made against them.

OneYorkshireLass

Richie-from-the-Boro wrote: »

As to the ' OneYorkshireLass' comment.

I am no longer a person ... I am an object?

Richie-from-the-Boro wrote: »

about a Pakistani without gender

It was quite clearly a female, as I said "her" etc.

Richie-from-the-Boro wrote: »

who arranged a [heresay] arranged marriage

Heresay?

sunnyone

OneYorkshireLass wrote: »

Nice post ...

As I'm sure you are well aware sunnyone, illnesses and peoples' financial situations can change.

She had this information in her signature for long enough, it is getting paid for by her DLA/tax credits back payment.

If you cant sit for long how can you travel long haul?

And thats only one of the inconsistances in her posts, there are so many more.

Andy, you know all this because you posted on the relevant threads under another AE.

mrs_sparrow

sunnyone wrote: »

She had this information in her signature for long enough, it is getting paid for by her DLA/tax credits back payment.

If you cant sit for long how can you travel long haul?

And thats only one of the inconsistances in her posts, there are so many more.

Andy, you know all this because you posted on the relevant threads under another AE.

Its her money she can do what she wants with it. And if she wants to go on holiday she can go on holiday. Would you prefer if she was using it for take aways every night??

And when you fly long haul you do not have to sit still for long, just for take off and landing - in between you can get up and wander around the plane.