Lloyds TSB Charges claim has been rebuffed. Next step?

gstewart3000

Hi there,

I recently used the template letter to attempt to claim back nearly £400 in charges as a result of financial hardship. There is absolutely no question as to the fact that I am in hardship and that this has been the cause of my charges snowballing, etc.

I just received a letter back from Lloyds stating that:

"The decision by the Supreme Court in 2009 means that the unarranged overdraft fees you've complained about are not penalties. The Supreme Court has also decided that, under the UTCCRs, the level of the fees is not a reason for them to be unfair.

Following the Supreme Court decision, the OFT considered whether there were any other ways in which it could challenge the fairness of unarranged overdraft fees. The OFT's view was that these arguments are unlikely to succeed and it has ended its investigation into unarranged overdraft fees.

We consider our unarranged overdraft fees to be fair and don't believe there is any basis on which they could be successfully challenged.

Unfortunately we do not refund any overdraft or statutory interest, standard account or service charges, including £5.00 Overdraft Usage Fee. This is because they are fees and charges for services that weprovide you."

I'm unsure what to make of this and am wondering if this is the bank's attempt to put me off going further. Should i send them another letter again or should i just go straight to the Ombudsman?

dunstonh

The response suggests they have interpreted your complaint as being made because you feel they are unfair or similar wording.

When you made you complaint, did you make references to being unfair or disproportionate or words to that affect?

That is important as the FOS will take take on complaints on that basis either.

gstewart3000

Hi there,

thanks for replying. As far as i'm aware I followed the instructions with relation to the template as closely as possible. In the section where you need to write your own story I put the following:

"Ever since the 11th of January when you allowed Wonga to take £224.78 out of my account I have been in severe financial difficulty. Despite only £18.05 being in the account you, for some reason, still allowed this payment to go out. I phoned up Phonebank and even went into the branch and each person I spoke to seemed to give me a differing view of why this was allowed to happen. It seemed like nobody was able to give me a straight answer on the subject. Even before this happened I had been living with my head barely above water and this has only served to put me further into the mire.

You are attempting to charge me nearly £100 a month in charges as a result of this which then only goes to put me further into debt and then incurring more charges. I am essentially stuck in a cycle that I am unable to break out of at the moment and these bank charges are simply making my situation worse.

My income is being eaten up by these charges and this is causing me to struggle to pay for necessities such as Council Tax, food and utility bills. I regularly have payments returned and go over my overdraft limit which you then decide to charge me for also. I have even had to resort to taking cash withdrawals out on my credit cards to make ends meet some months which, as i’m very sure you are already aware, causes me to incur higher rates of interest on my debt.

It is very obvious that I have been in financial difficulty for some time now and yet you have still continued to charge me and have at no time whatsoever attempted to provide me with any help and I have been shunned by whoever I have spoken to in the branch or by telephone each time I have attempted to contact you. I find this unacceptable and the service that I have received, not just at the present time, but for many years now has been of a very poor standard."

I think I made it quite clear that my situation was related to financial difficulty and suspect this is their way of essentially avoiding the main point and trying to fob me off.

My main query is now whether I should write back to the bank again or just go straight to the Ombudsman?

meer53

Before you sent your letter, did you ever contact Lloyds to discuss your financial hardship ? You say they have never attempted to provide you with any help, have you contacted them and asked for help ? Do you have proof that you've been "shunned" by people at the bank ?

Have you complained before about the poor service you have received ? You say this has been going on for years but that the incident which caused your problems was in January ?

I'm not being critical, but if i were dealing with your letter, i would be looking first of all to see what has been done so far with regard to how your fees were incurred and when. Then i would look at what contact we had had with you, whether you had called for help previously and whether you had logged any complaints before and if so, what they were about. I could be interpreting your letter incorrectly, but it comes across as if you have just submitted a claim citing financial hardship without exhausting the normal procedures with your bank. Apologies if you have done this already.

I can't see any bank not speaking to their customer if they called about charges on their account. It definately wouldn't happen where i work.

gstewart3000

I had a similar situation about a year and a half ago where i incurred a number of charges that snowballed and after a number of letters sent to them they eventually refunded those charges. At that point i expressed the financial difficulty I was in. I also received pretty bad service at that point with regards to actaully getting in contact with the person who was dealing with the complaint, never getting called back, etc.

When i phoned up about the payment originally(in January), the agent I spoke to on the phone wouldn't go into any detail over it with me and stated there was nothing he could do and didn't offer to pass my concerns on. I also went into the branch and the woman just fobbed me off, giving me a number to phone instead of looking at it herself. She also wasn't keen on me doing this phone call at the branch and encouraged me to leave and phone in my own time. Both times i felt that nobody was taking my concerns seriously.

Don't worry at all about being critical, i'd prefer people gave me an honest opinion on what i've written and your response has been very helpful. Any suggestions on where i should go from here?

meer53

If it were me, i'd speak to Lloyds first. They will have a specific department dealing with these claims, although hardship claims may possibly be dealt with separately, they are where i work.

You will need to make it clear that yours is a hardship claim and not a claim for unfair charges (although it is really) They are 2 separate issues in my department.

If you're still not happy then escalate it to the FOS.

Little_Mo_70

gstewart3000 wrote: »

Hi there,

thanks for replying. As far as i'm aware I followed the instructions with relation to the template as closely as possible. In the section where you need to write your own story I put the following:

"Ever since the 11th of January when you allowed Wonga to take £224.78 out of my account I have been in severe financial difficulty. Despite only £18.05 being in the account you, for some reason, still allowed this payment to go out. I phoned up Phonebank and even went into the branch and each person I spoke to seemed to give me a differing view of why this was allowed to happen. It seemed like nobody was able to give me a straight answer on the subject. Even before this happened I had been living with my head barely above water and this has only served to put me further into the mire.

You are attempting to charge me nearly £100 a month in charges as a result of this which then only goes to put me further into debt and then incurring more charges. I am essentially stuck in a cycle that I am unable to break out of at the moment and these bank charges are simply making my situation worse.

My income is being eaten up by these charges and this is causing me to struggle to pay for necessities such as Council Tax, food and utility bills. I regularly have payments returned and go over my overdraft limit which you then decide to charge me for also. I have even had to resort to taking cash withdrawals out on my credit cards to make ends meet some months which, as i’m very sure you are already aware, causes me to incur higher rates of interest on my debt.

It is very obvious that I have been in financial difficulty for some time now and yet you have still continued to charge me and have at no time whatsoever attempted to provide me with any help and I have been shunned by whoever I have spoken to in the branch or by telephone each time I have attempted to contact you. I find this unacceptable and the service that I have received, not just at the present time, but for many years now has been of a very poor standard."

I think I made it quite clear that my situation was related to financial difficulty and suspect this is their way of essentially avoiding the main point and trying to fob me off.

My main query is now whether I should write back to the bank again or just go straight to the Ombudsman?

Hello GS

You have asked for honest opinions and these are mine (and I don't mean to sound unkind)

Looking at the content of your letter to Lloyds I feel that it is too much going in 'all guns blazing' and critisism against the bank and their charges. You are blaming them for honoring payments that you yourself arranged. The very fact that one of your payments was to Wonga (ahhhh bless:eek:) showed your finances were not good. With a letter like that you have no chance as you are putting all the blame on the bank for your situation.

I see that you have already recovered charges some time ago but you say now that the current charges are causing you to struggle to pay food and bills etc. That applies to most of us on here and we just have to prune our outgoings to the bone to manage. Again, with respect, I certainly wouldn't blame the bank for paying out my direct debits or whatever if I had authorised those payments initially. That is my responsibility. If I'm having difficulties - and I do - then I speak to the bank (not counter staff - no disrespect to them - but by appointment with senior member of staff who is authorised to make decisions)

As Meer mentioned, the bank will be looking at your spending habits both now and historically to see if they can establish why you are always short of money and also to see whether you had made any attempt to repay your overdraft. They may feel that, as you have already been refunded charges that this should have helped somewhat towards your difficulties. They look at anything they feel might not be a necessity and think well, he's paying for (hyperthetical examples only) internet/mobile phone/Sky/foxy bingo/bargain booze etc. etc and yet he's saying he can't afford food and bills! Do you get the picture?

Look at the Financial Ombudsman criteria on MSE site for financial hardship very carefully. Having difficulties paying your bills alone is not a reason to complain/request a refund of your charges. You have to have very exceptional circumstances and be able to prove them before you would qualify. If you feel you really qualify then write again outlining those circumstances but be polite and don't make it seem that you feel the bank is to blame.

Good luck

meer53

Little Mo 70, you've read the OP's letter as i have.

I feel that the OP has made their claim for the wrong reason, which is why they've had the response they have. If a claim for financial hardship was made, Lloyds would have contacted the OP rather than sent that generic reply regarding fees.

Financial hardship claims are dealt with by negotiating with the customer, completing a statement of affairs and agreeing a way forward. It's possible that this may involve closing the account and agreeing a repayment plan or even referring the OP to CCCS for advice as to the best course of action.

The OP's letter was a bit aggressive, although bank charges can make their situation worse, it's not the bank who is causing the issue really. Negotiation with Lloyds is the way forward here.

dunstonh

I agree that the letter reads more as a vent at the level of charges rather than focusing on hardship. If that is the MSE template then it sorely needs updating. (unless it is the template from the period prior to the when the banks won the charges court cast).

Premier_2

gstewart3000 wrote: »

...I followed the instructions with relation to the template as closely as possible. In the section where you need to write your own story I put the following:

"Ever since the 11th of January when you allowed Wonga to take £224.78 out of my account I have been in severe financial difficulty. Despite only £18.05 being in the account you, for some reason, still allowed this payment to go out. I phoned up Phonebank and even went into the branch and each person I spoke to seemed to give me a differing view of why this was allowed to happen. It seemed like nobody was able to give me a straight answer on the subject. Even before this happened I had been living with my head barely above water and this has only served to put me further into the mire.

You are attempting to charge me nearly £100 a month in charges as a result of this which then only goes to put me further into debt and then incurring more charges. I am essentially stuck in a cycle that I am unable to break out of at the moment and these bank charges are simply making my situation worse.

My income is being eaten up by these charges and this is causing me to struggle to pay for necessities such as Council Tax, food and utility bills. I regularly have payments returned and go over my overdraft limit which you then decide to charge me for also. I have even had to resort to taking cash withdrawals out on my credit cards to make ends meet some months which, as i’m very sure you are already aware, causes me to incur higher rates of interest on my debt.

It is very obvious that I have been in financial difficulty for some time now and yet you have still continued to charge me and have at no time whatsoever attempted to provide me with any help and I have been shunned by whoever I have spoken to in the branch or by telephone each time I have attempted to contact you. I find this unacceptable and the service that I have received, not just at the present time, but for many years now has been of a very poor standard."...

I'm not sure how you think this follows the instructions given by MSE:

[Now you need to tell your own story... we can’t write this for you


Explain why you think charges were unfair in your own words (see examples in the guide). You should try and include examples which demonstrate as many of the following points as are relevant.


· Can’t pay for necessities. You’re struggling to meet basic necessities eg mortgage, council tax, food, utility bills
· Can’t pay debts. You’re struggling to make loan and credit card repayments
· Income eaten by charges. Your income’s being eaten up by repaying charges (eg you’re being asked to pay £50 of charges from a £100 weekly benefit income)
· Payments regularly returned. Your payments regularly get returned unpaid as you’ve not enough money in your account
· Substantial drop in income. For example, you’ve lost your job, started a lower paid job, needed to take parental or carers leave, your partner has died, you’ve separated from your partner, you’ve started full time education or you/your partner has been/gone to prison
· Disability or illness. You’ve needed to increase spending on something due to a disability or serious illness
· Going bankrupt or into debt management. You’re going bankrupt, getting an IVA or Debt Relief Order or are in a debt management plan
· Living off credit. You’re living off credit and regularly need to increase your credit limit
· Regular credit card cash withdrawals. You are using regular cash withdrawals from credit cards to make ends meet
· Frequently over overdraft limit. You frequently go over your overdraft limit. In earlier incarnations of hardship rules this was explained as having more than £500 of charges a year – so that seems a good benchmark
Bank charges have hurt your situation. The charges have contributed to making your financial hardship situation materially worse
· The charges are disproportionate. If you unintentionally slipped over your limit by a few pounds and the charge is a lot higher than the ‘offence’ eg you go £1 over but charged £35.
You are / were stuck in a cycle of charges you cannot break out off. If you’ve had charges on charges, and were stuck in a trap of not being able to clear them before new daily or monthly fees are added on top.

Where,for example, is the detail showing you are stuggling to meet the essentials such as mortgage/rent, utilities, etc.?

Where is the detail showing you are stuggling to make loan and credit card repayments? (not the charges the bank have applied to your current account)

Where is the detail of your income? You say there was only £18.05 in the account but no suggestion of where yuour income is. If this is not your primary bank account, then your claim based on financial hardship is almost certainly doomed to failure.

Where is the details of your payments getting regularly returned?

I could go on, but I hope you get the idea.

MargateSteve

I have just stumbled across this while searching for Lloyds bank charges as my wife is going down there today about this and another matter.

I see someone questioned whether the OP ever asked the bank for help but I do not think with Lloyds that is relevant.

When my wife was on Maternity leave, she inadvertently went over her overdraft limit. We had been sailing close to it for a couple of months while we re-adjusted our finances to accommodate her lower wage, but always knew that we could shuffle things to make sure we stayed within. Unfortunately, as my wife gets paid every x days (not on the same day every month) she miscalculated and went overdrawn by £12. By the time we were made aware the charges were £70.

My wife went to the back there and then to ask what could be done and she was simply told nothing. And so it began.

The knock on effect of losing that out of a Maternity leave wage meant that every month the charges went up to the point where over a quarter of my wife's wage went every month. Several times she went to the bank but was only ever offered extensions to her loan, which is not the solution when on a reduced wage.

This lead to being unable to meet loan payments from Lloyds so they took it out of her Government Maternity grant which was sitting in another account. Obviously my wife complained about that as, theoretically, it was not her money. They said that as it was in one of her accounts it could be used to pay off the loan which put more strain. Once again they asked if she wanted to increase the loan.

Skip to today. My wife is back at work and got paid two days ago. She has received a letter stating that she is already overdrawn, the rent payment has been knocked back, the car has been off the road for two months (cars are not an essential luxury but when you have a two-year old it is nice to have it if needed urgently) and they are charging her again. For my wife to be able to work our daughter goes to nursery. We cannot make this months payment as the account that the money for it is in has been blocked by Lloyds (cash machine said 'Please contact your bank') with no communication as to why. With no money to pay for nursery and no-one available to babysit, I am now at home today instead of at work meaning even less money next month. My wife had to take Wednesday off for the same reason.

My point is that my wife has contacted Lloyds many times, both in the branch and by letter about the struggles we have been having following on from one simple mistake that meant we had taken £12 (albeit temporarily) from Lloyds. Last year alone they took £700 in charges from her account.

The responses have always been, ' That's the rules' or 'have you considered extending your loan?'. Given that, the farcical way a PPI claim was handled and the fact that on the day my wife went in to reduce her overdraft from £500 to £250 in 2009 they seem to have got her to sign an agreement to extend her loan by 3 years, even though no money was transferred to her account at that point and the payment reductions were only reduced by 8p, I do not think Lloyds are at all customer focussed and are just about getting money out of people.

I bank with Barclays and due to a payment being taken early, I went overdrawn by £24 a couple of months back. I did not get charged for this as it was only for a couple of days. If Lloyds had taken this approach, we would not be in the situation we are today.

So, basically, we have asked Lloyds for help, right back at the start when the problem was manageable, and throughout the last couple of years. All Lloyds have done is exacerbated the problem by taking more and more each month.