MSE News: Unemployment to 'keep on rising'

dickydonkin

Randvegeta wrote: »

Evidence? This wont be taken seriously without some evidence.

Here it is foreign workers exploiting us!

Here

Relevant for your profession.

Here

Although I find it a bit rich that you stated my comments need backing up with facts - I could argue the same with your comments on your previous post that suggested that UK workers won't accept jobs that migrant workers will.

Have you considered that this may also be due to the fact that many people on benefits would be worse off by taking these jobs? And before you share an opinion on that, I will add that it is not their fault - but the benefit culture that has flourished over many years in which successive governments should shoulder the blame.



I happen to agree that 'red tape' is a barrier. If taking on employees is a risk, it discourages employers from doing so! Bring on the casual workers! Makeing it easier to fire people should make hireing people more attractive!

Casual workers still have rights - just because they are casual workers, this does not erode the employers duty of care and other statutory obligations.

dandelionclock30

"why is it easier to exploit other EU nationals than locals?".

Are you really seriously asking this?

Why do you think?

dickydonkin

dandelionclock30 wrote: »

"why is it easier to exploit other EU nationals than locals?".

Are you really seriously asking this?

Why do you think?

I was just going to edit my previous post that I was referring to all migrant workers - not just EU nationals.

Many (not all) migrant workers come here and do not work for a living as such - they live for their work.

Many also live in hovels shared by other colleagues and will work all of the hours God sends. They have no life - only their work.

You just cannot compare these with UK workers.

Again, I hasten to add that many have come here and settled well and (just as important) integrated.

If taking on employees is a risk, it discourages employers from doing so!

You either need a worker or you don't - an employer can now get rid of a worker up two two years after commencing employment without redress(other than discrimination). How can taking on an employee be a risk with such a significant time to decide if the employee is no good?

Randvegeta

dickydonkin wrote: »

I was just going to edit my previous post that I was referring to all migrant workers - not just EU nationals.

Many (not all) migrant workers come here and do not work for a living as such - they live for their work.

Many also live in hovels shared by other colleagues and will work all of the hours God sends. They have no life - only their work.

You just cannot compare these with UK workers.

And why is that? Why can you not compare UK workers with these migrant workers? Why is it unacceptable for locals to work this way? Why is it acceptable to have them instead, living off benefits?

Some hard working migrant comes to the UK, works long hard hours for minimum wage, sharing accomodation with other migrants while some unemployed local sits on his/her butt having everything handed to them in benefits. Are they too good for such work? Is it below them?

And still, how does one 'exploit' EU nationals easier than locals?

dickydonkin wrote: »

You either need a worker or you don't - an employer can now get rid of a worker up two two years after commencing employment without redress(other than discrimination). How can taking on an employee be a risk with such a significant time to decide if the employee is no good?

What about the cost of hiring such as national insurance. It seems strange to me that paying somone as an employee on PAYE cost more to the employer than having a contractor. Does the red tape not include this little issue?

Let me try and clarify my position.

I do not like the fact people become jobless. It is better for the whole country and economy if people are employed.

But if work is so scarce, why do so many jobs go to migrant workers?

Should a UK worker not do such jobs simply because it is seen as 'too dirty/low class/low paid to do so? If so, do they deserve to go on benefits? Essentially, it seems to me that Brits are unwilling to get their hands dirty, let migrants do the job while they claim benefits. Is that right?

And I fail to see how people can blame the Tories for the mess we are in. I suppose the Tories are the cause of the GLOBAL problem too right? A bloated public sectore is bad for tax payers as it is poor value for money. Also, hiring workers into the public sector at the higher than average salaries (in some areas of the UK) hinders private sector development as it makes hiring people more costly as salaries are artificially pushed up.

And to say the budget/system is geared to favour the rich is laughable. Try giving away 50% of your income in tax and see how nice that feels. Not to mention the rich most likley use less public services meaning they get the least value for their tax money.

Let's have a fair system shall we? Encourage working for a living. Reward success and punish laziness. Let's not have a bloated public sector, bring down taxes and make everyone that little bit better off.

dickydonkin

Randvegeta wrote: »

And why is that? Why can you not compare UK workers with these migrant workers? Why is it unacceptable for locals to work this way? Why is it acceptable to have them instead, living off benefits?

I don't recall stating that it was acceptable for 'locals' living on benefits rather than go to work. For your information, it is not just 'locals' who claim benefits.

What I did allude to was that our benefit system does not provide incentives for claimants to come off benefits as they would be worse off. That is not their fault - it is the system that is broken.

Some hard working migrant comes to the UK, works long hard hours for minimum wage, sharing accomodation with other migrants while some unemployed local sits on his/her butt having everything handed to them in benefits. Are they too good for such work? Is it below them?

As I stated earlier, many who come to work here don't have a life - they live to work - many send the money they earn back to their families which offers no benefits to our economy - other than taxes -assuming they are legally working of course.

Would you be prepared to work, work, work for minimum wage without any leisure or family time?

And still, how does one 'exploit' EU nationals easier than locals?

I provided links in my previous posts as requested - but for the ultimate of exploitation - read this.

I see you cunningly keep referring to 'EU Nationals' as opposed to all migrants - I fail to see the difference in the context of this thread.

What about the cost of hiring such as national insurance. It seems strange to me that paying somone as an employee on PAYE cost more to the employer than having a contractor. Does the red tape not include this little issue?

The employers of casual staff (casual staff who you hold in high regard) still have to pay National Insurance, still have to pay employers liability insurance, still have to pay holiday pay and still owe the same duty of care to everyone who is in their employment - casual or otherwise.

Those workers who are supplied by agencies (which I think you have incorrectly lumped into the same category as 'casual workers') still have most of the rights of full time workers, however, in most cases, these workers will usually be paid via a contract of services arrangement and paid by the agency - although the end user client will (in many cases) be paying the agency more than it will cost to employ their own workers.

Let me try and clarify my position.

I do not like the fact people become jobless. It is better for the whole country and economy if people are employed.

But if work is so scarce, why do so many jobs go to migrant workers?

Many might say that jobs are so scarce due to the fact that migrants have filled up the jobs that were available.

Should a UK worker not do such jobs simply because it is seen as 'too dirty/low class/low paid to do so? If so, do they deserve to go on benefits? Essentially, it seems to me that Brits are unwilling to get their hands dirty, let migrants do the job while they claim benefits. Is that right?

I never said it was - the comments above are your assumptions - not fact!

And I fail to see how people can blame the Tories for the mess we are in. I suppose the Tories are the cause of the GLOBAL problem too right? A bloated public sectore is bad for tax payers as it is poor value for money. Also, hiring workers into the public sector at the higher than average salaries (in some areas of the UK) hinders private sector development as it makes hiring people more costly as salaries are artificially pushed up.

And to say the budget/system is geared to favour the rich is laughable. Try giving away 50% of your income in tax and see how nice that feels. Not to mention the rich most likley use less public services meaning they get the least value for their tax money.

Let's have a fair system shall we? Encourage working for a living. Reward success and punish laziness. Let's not have a bloated public sector, bring down taxes and make everyone that little bit better off.

The last part of you post has deviated off the main topic and has degraded into a political rant - something I am not getting involved with and to which I will keep my own counsel.

Maybe you should put yourself forward for MP in your local area.

Randvegeta

You know what, you're right.

I agree. It is the system that is broken, and people are just taking advantage of it. Probably should direct my 'anger' towards the system than the people who exploit it.

And yes I appologize for getting political. But in my defence pennineman started it :-P.

And I differentiate between EU and all migrant workers because most migrant workers I see are EU nationals. Of course I see many of Asian descent too, but I'm not going to go into that and get 'political' again.

out_of_cash

dickydonkin wrote: »

That says more about you as a person as opposed to your opinions - which after such a stupid comment, wouldn't be take seriously anyway.



Perhaps it may be the fact that employers may not wish to employ 'locals' because foreign workers may be perceived as easy to exploit and are less likely to stand up for rights that have been attained over many years.

The government cite 'red tape' as a barrier to employers - it may be a barrier to to them, but for the majority of workers, red tape is their protection.

They also can, and are willing to work for £6.08 an hour,where as mr/mrs uk have to be in a very special niche financial situation to run a house mortgage flat bills etc on that kind of income.Hourly rates of pay are horrendously out of line with the cost of living,go over to the dwp website and see the hourly rates of pay, and they wonder why people on jsa etc are not taking jobs at a stupid rate.

cashbackproblems

As mentioned it just comes down to fact that foreigners work harder as they need the money more and have no alternatives plus appreciate it having come from difficult backgrounds.

If you work full time on minimum wage you get about £218 p/w after tax, on jsa £68, surely that alone is incentive to work but the UK culture of the uneducated/unemployed is that of laziness and entitlement.

Randvegeta

cashbackproblems wrote: »

As mentioned it just comes down to fact that foreigners work harder as they need the money more and have no alternatives plus appreciate it having come from difficult backgrounds.

If you work full time on minimum wage you get about £218 p/w after tax, on jsa £68, surely that alone is incentive to work but the UK culture of the uneducated/unemployed is that of laziness and entitlement.

It's all about entitlement. They think they can get a free ride, and they can, which does indeed point to a broken system.

Minimum wage is more than enough out of cash. Unless you are talking about London! £218 p/w (£11,336 /yr) plenty for 1, and doable for 2.

When I was a student, I lived on much less.

Here's the wake-up call.

If you cant afford that luxury apartment, downgrade to more modest accomodation. If you still cant afford that 2 bed apartment, try sharing with another person.

Unless you're in london, finding 2 bedroom places for under 600GBP /month is easy. Thats 300 or less per person. Easy to live on 5GBP /day on food, and that leaves plenty for utilities, council tax, travel, holdiays, and even a very modest amount of savings.

Problem isnt pay, it's waist!

dandelionclock30

Its waste- not waist!. The latter is above the hips !