ESA - WRAG to Support Group

zippy1969

So...I went along with my friend today for her ATOS assessment. It was booked for 3:45, but they phoned at 12:30 and asked if she could attend at 1:30. Given that they know she has OCD and any change to her routine is very anxiety inducing, this seemed quite irresponsible. Needless to say this threw her into a panic.

We finally arrived at 2:30 and my friend was extremely wound-up at this point. Then we had to wait 20 mins to be seen.

The assessor seemed incapable of operating the CD recording equipment but finally got it going. The room was so hot and uncomfortable.

First came questions about physical problems. My friend is partially deaf in one ear and has to wear an aid...but in her anxious state forgot to put it in. She was asked about her deafness. Then she was asked about her medication for acid reflux.

Then came questions regarding her mental health. Once again she had to talk about the same things she's talked about before. Her OCD is hard enough but then having to talk about it is exhausting for her. She took along one of the sheets of paper she sometimes uses to create a 'checklist' of her rituals. It only really makes sense to her and is very disjointed and intricate. The assessor didn't seem interested, yet this is a tangible piece of evidence relating to her OCD.

Then she was asked to remember the words 'bed', 'table' and 'chair.' Then she was asked to subtract 7 from 105, then 7 from that number and so on. After this she was given a piece of A4 paper and asked to fold it in half. Then she was asked what the three words were that she'd been asked to remember. She managed all of these easily.

At one point the assessor stopped the assessment to go and "make a phonecall." When he returned I asked him who he'd called? He said he had to call the 'mental health team' for guidance because, his words, "I'm new and not really sure what I needed to do next?"

The interview was concluded and the recording stopped. The assessor breathed a huge sigh of relief and said "phew, that's the first time I've done a recorded interview and wasn't sure what to do?" He then had to get someone to help him 'finalise' the CD's in the machine. We got a copy and they kept the other.

The assessor then went on to say that a decision over benefit entitlement would be sent in 2-3 weeks, even though we'd been told previously on the phone that this assessment was to decide what group my friend should be in.

My friend was a wreck by the end of this.

It all seemed very unprofessional to me. And what were those 'tasks' all about? Just because someone can remember 3 words, can do simple subtraction and can fold a piece of paper, this says nothing about their overall state of mental health. I found it to be very insulting and condescending. Do ATOS consider completion of these tasks to be an 'in-depth' assessment of cognitive function?

So now we have to wait.

I have found today's experience to be deeply worrying. It's a 'production line' of assessment. There is no regard to how someone can be on different days depending on mood etc. The process is retrograde and !!!!!!. It is 'devolved' instead of 'evolved.' It is an inept assessment made by people with limited knowledge of mental health issues and with the ultimate decision being made by a member of staff at DWP who has never met the claimant, is receiving information 'third-hand' and who is not medically qualified in any way.

And if it ends with an appeal, the evidence from health professionals involved with the claimant directly always appears to take precedent.

rogerblack

zippy1969 wrote: »

At one point the assessor stopped the assessment to go and "make a phonecall." When he returned I asked him who he'd called? He said he had to call the 'mental health team' for guidance because, his words, "I'm new and not really sure what I needed to do next?"
<snip>
It all seemed very unprofessional to me. And what were those 'tasks' all about? Just because someone can remember 3 words, can do simple subtraction and can fold a piece of paper, this says nothing about their overall state of mental health. I found it to be very insulting and condescending. Do ATOS consider completion of these tasks to be an 'in-depth' assessment of cognitive function?

These tasks are not arbitrary, they relate directly to descriptors set out by parliament.
They are the ones to blame.

I would guess they are attempting to determine:


'11 (a) Cannot learn how to complete a simple 15
task, such as setting an alarm clock.
(b) Cannot learn anything beyond a simple 9
task, such as setting an alarm clock.
(c) Cannot learn anything beyond a moderately 6
complex task, such as the steps involved in
operating a washing machine to clean
clothes. '

The assessment is to gather evidence about your condition.
It does not directly determine the group you are put in, that is done by the DWP.
I do note that guidance is that if the HCP is considering recommending the support group, that they should interrupt the interview, and consult a superior.
I don't know if this is what's happened in this case, of course.

I would suggest you write all of your concerns down, and forward this to the DWP, along with any other evidence you have that's not been sent in.
Tell them that you have sent in further evidence so it can be considered at the same time.
Plus, in a couple of days, phone up and request a copy of the medical report.

schrodie

zippy1969 wrote: »

So...I went along with my friend today for her ATOS assessment. It was booked for 3:45, but they phoned at 12:30 and asked if she could attend at 1:30. Given that they know she has OCD and any change to her routine is very anxiety inducing, this seemed quite irresponsible. Needless to say this threw her into a panic.

We finally arrived at 2:30 and my friend was extremely wound-up at this point. Then we had to wait 20 mins to be seen.

By their own admission Atos deliberetly overbook appointments.

zippy1969 wrote: »

The assessor seemed incapable of operating the CD recording equipment but finally got it going.

You can understand now in addition to not wanting an official record of the assessment why Atos are fighting tooth and nail to stop the right of claimants to record their assessments.

zippy1969 wrote: »

At one point the assessor stopped the assessment to go and "make a phonecall." When he returned I asked him who he'd called? He said he had to call the 'mental health team' for guidance because, his words, "I'm new and not really sure what I needed to do next?"

It all seemed very unprofessional to me.

This is typical of an outfit that not only is immune from any responsibility for their poor record on WCAs in terms of financial penalties when they get them so wrong but is driven by targets as exposed by Atos employees and they're only interetsed at getting their hands on their £100million a year of taxpayer money.

Stand by for the appeals bill to rocket when they start on PIPers and Atos walk away laughing!!!

Ellejmorgan

zippy1969 wrote: »

So...I went along with my friend today for her ATOS assessment. It was booked for 3:45, but they phoned at 12:30 and asked if she could attend at 1:30. Given that they know she has OCD and any change to her routine is very anxiety inducing, this seemed quite irresponsible. Needless to say this threw her into a panic.

We finally arrived at 2:30 and my friend was extremely wound-up at this point. Then we had to wait 20 mins to be seen.

The assessor seemed incapable of operating the CD recording equipment but finally got it going. The room was so hot and uncomfortable.

First came questions about physical problems. My friend is partially deaf in one ear and has to wear an aid...but in her anxious state forgot to put it in. She was asked about her deafness. Then she was asked about her medication for acid reflux.

Then came questions regarding her mental health. Once again she had to talk about the same things she's talked about before. Her OCD is hard enough but then having to talk about it is exhausting for her. She took along one of the sheets of paper she sometimes uses to create a 'checklist' of her rituals. It only really makes sense to her and is very disjointed and intricate. The assessor didn't seem interested, yet this is a tangible piece of evidence relating to her OCD.

Then she was asked to remember the words 'bed', 'table' and 'chair.' Then she was asked to subtract 7 from 105, then 7 from that number and so on. After this she was given a piece of A4 paper and asked to fold it in half. Then she was asked what the three words were that she'd been asked to remember. She managed all of these easily.

At one point the assessor stopped the assessment to go and "make a phonecall." When he returned I asked him who he'd called? He said he had to call the 'mental health team' for guidance because, his words, "I'm new and not really sure what I needed to do next?"

The interview was concluded and the recording stopped. The assessor breathed a huge sigh of relief and said "phew, that's the first time I've done a recorded interview and wasn't sure what to do?" He then had to get someone to help him 'finalise' the CD's in the machine. We got a copy and they kept the other.

The assessor then went on to say that a decision over benefit entitlement would be sent in 2-3 weeks, even though we'd been told previously on the phone that this assessment was to decide what group my friend should be in.

My friend was a wreck by the end of this.

It all seemed very unprofessional to me. And what were those 'tasks' all about? Just because someone can remember 3 words, can do simple subtraction and can fold a piece of paper, this says nothing about their overall state of mental health. I found it to be very insulting and condescending. Do ATOS consider completion of these tasks to be an 'in-depth' assessment of cognitive function?

So now we have to wait.

I have found today's experience to be deeply worrying. It's a 'production line' of assessment. There is no regard to how someone can be on different days depending on mood etc. The process is retrograde and !!!!!!. It is 'devolved' instead of 'evolved.' It is an inept assessment made by people with limited knowledge of mental health issues and with the ultimate decision being made by a member of staff at DWP who has never met the claimant, is receiving information 'third-hand' and who is not medically qualified in any way.

And if it ends with an appeal, the evidence from health professionals involved with the claimant directly always appears to take precedent.

This is the 1st assessment i've ever heard of that's been recorded, not sure how she managed to get that done...:)

I'm still awaiting my decision letter, my medical was in April..

Muttleythefrog

Interesting Zippy... concur with Roger above... and strongly.. very strongly suggest that on Monday a request is made by phone to DWP for a copy of the resulting medical report ESA85 which will give probably significant advance notice of likely decision... the DWP will take the decision and good chance they'll effectively just rubber stamp the report... but not for several weeks or even couple months. But very interesting to hear of this experience... sadly none of it surprises me.

zippy1969

Muttleythefrog wrote: »

Interesting Zippy... concur with Roger above... and strongly.. very strongly suggest that on Monday a request is made by phone to DWP for a copy of the resulting medical report ESA85 which will give probably significant advance notice of likely decision... the DWP will take the decision and good chance they'll effectively just rubber stamp the report... but not for several weeks or even couple months. But very interesting to hear of this experience... sadly none of it surprises me.

In my experience, best to keep phone contact to a minimum and instead put everything in writing and send via recorded delivery.

With this in mind, I'm going to help my friend prepare a letter to send to DWP. It'll request a copy of the report first and foremost. It'll then go on to complain about being asked to attend early on the actual day of the assessment, indeed, being called and asked to attend just an hour later with no regard given to my friends condition and given that the appointment had been booked for 2 weeks. It'll then mention that we did arrive over an hour prior to the pre-booked time but were made to wait 20 mins. Then we'll pick-up on the obvious inability of the assessor to operate the recording equipment and his further admission that he was unfamiliar with the process and so had to call for advice, leaving us in a very hot room, with my friend in an obvious state of panic. We'll request that the details of that telephone conversation are made available. Finally, we'll report the comments made by the assessor at the point he ended the recording where he expressed his relief that the assessment was over because, as he admitted, he'd never carried out a recorded assessment before. In addition, we'll ask for the qualifications of the assessor and his ability to make judgements regarding mental health issues and why he disregarded the 'plan' my friend had prepared regarding her rituals for that day.

I also feel it might be appropriate to ask why the assessment made no mention of the social isolation my friend suffers due to her problems and also no mention of how her condition affects her in a working environment. Surely this is important as the reason for the assessment is to quantify the claimants ability to work. Along with this we'll mention how we were told over the phone previously by DWP that the assessment was not to reassess eligibility for benefit, but to check if my friend is in the correct group...and yet the assessor told us my friend will be told in 2-3 weeks if she is still entitled to benefit and if not, she can appeal. Serious disparity there.

The entire system is questionable, based on very shaky foundations and almost completely flawed from start to finish.

My friend is SO appreciative of all of your help, as am I. If any of you have any suggestions regarding the letter we will prepare, please do mention them.

Many thanks.

Muttleythefrog

Be interesting to see what happens Zippy but I think you might be missing one very important consideration. The report may recommend your friend to Support Group... you may find yourself going down a route of discrediting something helpful to her. As per roger.. there is a possibility that curtailment (medical terminated when no value to continuing since sufficient conclusions drawn) was applied in this case... can't say for sure but the leaving room to consult MH person suggests that may have occurred. If so then the report could be particularly favourable and the HCP may be able to (in theory) explain lack of exploration of particular matters due to that curtailment. Hard to tell.. which is why I really think medical report is a very important strategic necessity (because then it'll become apparent) to have before taking such an aggressive stance towards it and its author. It's a game... and not always in a game is doing the right thing the sensible thing. I'm conscious that I'm sitting on ESA Support Group due to a lousy flawed medical report... and at last reassessment was given Support Grp again due to that same lousy report supported by another lousy report.... and I think to myself.. if people want to talk shi*e that actually supports my aims then I'll use their shi*e to help them continue to do so..lol. So be careful how you proceed is my advice.. be careful of shooting self in foot... I would get that report before writing.

zippy1969

Muttleythefrog wrote: »

Be interesting to see what happens Zippy but I think you might be missing one very important consideration. The report may recommend your friend to Support Group... you may find yourself going down a route of discrediting something helpful to her. As per roger.. there is a possibility that curtailment (medical terminated when no value to continuing since sufficient conclusions drawn) was applied in this case... can't say for sure but the leaving room to consult MH person suggests that may have occurred. If so then the report could be particularly favourable and the HCP may be able to (in theory) explain lack of exploration of particular matters due to that curtailment. Hard to tell.. which is why I really think medical report is a very important strategic necessity (because then it'll become apparent) to have before taking such an aggressive stance towards it and its author. It's a game... and not always in a game is doing the right thing the sensible thing. I'm conscious that I'm sitting on ESA Support Group due to a lousy flawed medical report... and at last reassessment was given Support Grp again due to that same lousy report supported by another lousy report.... and I think to myself.. if people want to talk shi*e that actually supports my aims then I'll use their shi*e to help them continue to do so..lol. So be careful how you proceed is my advice.. be careful of shooting self in foot... I would get that report before writing.

Excellent advice...and point taken.

Will request the report initially. If the resulting award is favourable, great. If not then we will put the complaint in writing outlining the concerns I've mentioned.

Sound advice...thank you.

rogerblack

zippy1969 wrote: »

Excellent advice...and point taken.

Will request the report initially. If the resulting award is favourable, great. If not then we will put the complaint in writing outlining the concerns I've mentioned.

Waiting to submit your concerns until you've had sight of the medical is not the same as waiting till you've had a decision!

When you get the report, if it's clearly supportive in areas you care about (you do not care in general about, and should not belabour small errors other than at best a brief note, unless they would change the decision), then you should strongly consider not sending in a complaint about it.

Otherwise, if it is not a reasonable assessment, then highlight where the errors are, ideally supported by evidence, and get this in quickly, with a call first to ask them to delay the decision until they've got it.

Getting them to make the correct decision first is vital.

zippy1969

rogerblack wrote: »

Waiting to submit your concerns until you've had sight of the medical is not the same as waiting till you've had a decision!

When you get the report, if it's clearly supportive in areas you care about (you do not care in general about, and should not belabour small errors other than at best a brief note, unless they would change the decision), then you should strongly consider not sending in a complaint about it.

Otherwise, if it is not a reasonable assessment, then highlight where the errors are, ideally supported by evidence, and get this in quickly, with a call first to ask them to delay the decision until they've got it.

Getting them to make the correct decision first is vital.

Yet more good advice. Thank you.