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HSBC - Small Business Advisor
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DK_abc
Posts: 23 Forumite
Hi,
I have some general questions I would like to ask about PPI for small business. I have already made a personal claim with Halifax for 1 personal loan and got around £3500 back, so thanks for the advice in the past (I can't remember my old user name so have had to set up a new account).
I will try and keep this brief and some of it is sketchy but hand on heart this is what happened to me and I would like to see where I stand now. I know it starts in 1999 (over 6-7 years ago but please bear with me).
In 1999 I set up a small business account with HSBC. It was a :LTD company consisiting of a partnership between 3 people. We applied for what I think was a £3000 loan to buy a computer, a couple of tables etc.. we were working from home.
In that first meeting we were told we needed to set up a debenture, which was £750 and that we had to have PPI as we did not have any property to put into the equation. I remember this because I was always told by my Dad to NEVER take insurance on loans from banks because they make enough money with the Interest they charge. I obviously said we didn't want PPI but it was made crystal clear that the loan would not be approved if we did not take out the PPI and debenture. The three of us were non the wiser and we therefore agreed. I admit I was completely naive in the early days of business and I trusted the bank implicitly.
When we set up the business I was completely transparent with everything about my business (I wanted to succeed) and I was of the belief that our "Small Business Advisor" was a service that HSBC offered to small businesses, to HELP small businesses, much like a Citizens Advice Beaureu. I often used to phone my Small Business Advisor asking questions about should I or should I not take this project on at this price etc. I remember the first time I felt really kind of foolish when his answer was "I can't help you with those decisions". I asked, in a genuinely surprised way "Well what is a Small Business Advisor meant to do then? Sorry, I am lost, I don't want to waste your time or mine. I thought it was a service to help me succeed in business" and he explained it was more about offering a personal service for lending money/overdrafts etc. so we knew the person we were dealing with. That's the only thing I can agree on looking back... personal it was. Very personal indeed. We knew our Small Business Advisor by first name and foolishly we told him every business prospect we had in the pipeline, every thought or avenue we were pursuing. I told him everything. Still to this day his name comes up regularly in conversations between myself and my business partners at the time as probably the most rutheless person we ever encountered in business.
Looking back now I realise I was very naive to even think a service llike that would be offered by a commercial entity. I had been sold by TV advertising and the like. However, for many years my small business advisor (I remember his name to this day but will refrain from posting it on here) basically stung me for numerous PPI policies and charges that I never requested, often protested against and always reluctantly agreed to because we needed overdrafts, small loans or whatever, to survive.
Over the period of about 2 years 1999 - 2001 I probably had about 3-5 PPI policies forced on me, in return for extensions of overdrafts, which were always converted to personal loans, if we were in any way late with our payments and likewise we had what HSBC called Commercial Cards at the time. These were "sold" to us along with the non optional Payment Protection Insurance (we only asked for an overdraft of a few hundred pounds to see us through a project and ended up with £6,000 worth of credit over 2 cards).
Anyway... I can remember 2 specific times when I questioned PPI;
Once was when we asked for an extension to our overdraft and I was told we had borrowed too much (maybe a couple of thousand pounds between 2 of us at the time - of course with PPI included) and we were told they would only give us money if they transfered the overdraft to a personal loan. Reluctantly I agreed and I can still remember to this day being sat in my Small Business Advisors office on a friday afternoon, worried I was going to go out of business over such a small ammount of money... him totting up the monthly payments... and then without even making eye contact with me he said "and then there is XXXX ammount for Payment Protection Insurance". I was livid.. It was was meant to be a small short term overdraft and I was now being lumbered with a personal loan with PPI and other charges and interest that would take me approx 3 years to pay off. The PPI was the final part that made me protest, as I said above my Dad had always told me "DON'T TAKE INSURANCE from BANKS because they make enough money on the Interest" I said "This is unfair, I don't want the Insurance" - I had conceeded defeat about it being a personal loan by now and without a single word or even making eye contact with me (I can still clearly picture it to this day) he continued totting up the numbers without removing the PPI and then passed the sheet of paper with the monthly repayments on them over to me. I either had to sign the dotted line or go bankrupt. Reluctantly, angrily, I signed.
This was the final straw for my business partner and he left the company. I was left on my own, very determined, still very naive. I had been offered a job project in America and told my SBA that I would be taking that project as it was a good way of me making some profit that would help clear my debts. He was happy with this.
A few weeks later I recieved a call from my Small Business Advisor.. he requested a meeting. I went in to meet him and he told me he was converting everything to another personal loan as he was not confident I could clear my overdraft and commercial cards in time. This totalled about £10,000 when consolidated (please bear in mind we probably took about £40,000 in our first year with no major expenses and probably slightly more in the second year - other than our basic salaries and rent - not bad for a start up) but via converting everything to personal loans what had started as a, small, small business loan and over draft had now escalated. I had been completely demotivated by the bank and even though I protested that this was unfair as they kept making money out of me, I was told there was no choice in the matter.
He added up the figures, included the PPI and reluctantly I signed the dotted line. At this point I had to seriously address my financial situation. The bank had me over a barrel. I worked out that about £4000 of the £1000 was bank charges, insurance and interest that had been applied over time. I ended up doing a 6 month freelance contract with the objective being to clear the £10,000 personal debt. I was advised that if I could clear that debt he would start everything and give me a personal loan so I could complete my project in America. I was motivated..for six months I swallowed my pride and worked for another company on a freelance basis and paid off every single penny of the £10,000. I was ready to start a fresh, no debts, new country for a few months and the prospect of making profit on this project.
Two days before I was set to head abroad I got a call from him. He requested a meeting. I knew by now this meant I was going to be shafted but I never saw what he had planned. He said he was calling in my debenture as he was not confident that I would return from the USA (even though I had stayed in touch with him for 2 years, he knew my family, he knew where I lived). In calling in the debetnture it meant that he could not issue another business loan. HOWEVER... he could, of course, issue a personal loan because my credit was good.
I was furious. I had to either cancel the project in America and basically call it a day or accept ANOTHER personal loan, with insurance and all the charges that came with it. I had no choice. I signed the dotted line.
This really was the final straw. I made all my payments and took out another loan a few years later, again saddled with PPI. I remember this time saying on the phone (I can't remember if it was him or someone else I was dealing with by now) "Please, do I have to have the insurance? You guys always make me have it and I have never made a claim" - I was told "Yes" I had to have it. By now I was kind of trained to accept it, even though I never ever once requested it.
So..that's a brief summary... sorry a long message.
So where am I at now?
Well a couple of weeks ago I decided I wanted to see where I stand on this because quite frankly I feel HSBC and my Small Business Advisor manipulated me into taking business loans and then in them converting them to personal loans again and again they charged me multiple times for PPI, interest, setting up fee's etc. Now realising what has escalated with the whole PPI sistuation I wonder if there is any legal ground I may have?
So I phoned HSBC and asked for any finromation on loans they may have that I took out under my company and personal names. I was told it was too far back, they didn't have that information. I explained I did not believe that was the case as I was a LTD company and I have to save my VAT and Tax returns for 7 years and I could not believe that HSBC just hit delete after 7 years and all company and personal information is wiped from history. The advisor told me that WAS the case. I then put on my much smarter/wiser head and said.. "Can I have your name, contact number and division you work in with HSBC please. She gave me said information. I then said "I want you to confirm, on record as I will be pursuing this in writing, that you have offered me every possible option to access my old company loan information in regards me making possibly multiple PPI claims against HSBC". She changed her story very quickly and told me... I can in fact contact;
The Regulated Sales Complaints Team
120 Red Cliff Quay
Red Cliff Street
Bristol
BS1 6HU
10th Aug 2005 is furthest back the HSBC system goes. Mention this in letter so they check the archives.
She told gave me a loan number for a personal loan I had in 2007 and of course there was PPI on that. However... my question...
All the above... is there anything I can do? Can I start a civil case against HSBC? How do I claim for multiple PPI's that date back past the 7 year date, without actually knowing every single bit of specific information about what he said to me etc when selling me PPI. I am certain in these few years I had PPI on my £10,000 loan. I had PPI on my £6000 commercial cards and I had PPI on every other loan that was approved. Should I contact a company that can help make a claim like this? It seems a shame that I did the first claim with Halifax and it was approved in 48 hours to the sum of about £3500. This money was my money that was taken, ruthlessly from me... was it even legal? Any advice would be most appreciated.
I always said to myself HSBC were the worst business people I ever dealt with and I dealt with some pretty rutheless people in the dot com bubble of the '90's but our small business advisor stands head and shoulders above them all for sheer tenacity and ability to take money from us, no matter how much we protested.
For the record I was charged something by HSBC and that was that... I went to Halifax, explained my situation and they gave me a loan (of course telling me I had to have PPI because I was freelance - that was the claim I made last year) and I took the whole loan, in cash, into HSBC Canary Wharf and paid off every penny to HSBC, in cash, over the counter on a busy lunch time. I remember them calling out the Assistant Manager to try and talk me out of it... I won't say in a public forum what I told him but a few people in the queue behind me had a smile on tehir faces when I said it and walked out, wiping my hands of HSBC. If I could in any way pursue this it would really mean a lot... and not just financially, yes, of course I would love the money but this is personal. I want to check every available resource out there for me now that this who debacle has come to light.
Any help appreciated.
I have some general questions I would like to ask about PPI for small business. I have already made a personal claim with Halifax for 1 personal loan and got around £3500 back, so thanks for the advice in the past (I can't remember my old user name so have had to set up a new account).
I will try and keep this brief and some of it is sketchy but hand on heart this is what happened to me and I would like to see where I stand now. I know it starts in 1999 (over 6-7 years ago but please bear with me).
In 1999 I set up a small business account with HSBC. It was a :LTD company consisiting of a partnership between 3 people. We applied for what I think was a £3000 loan to buy a computer, a couple of tables etc.. we were working from home.
In that first meeting we were told we needed to set up a debenture, which was £750 and that we had to have PPI as we did not have any property to put into the equation. I remember this because I was always told by my Dad to NEVER take insurance on loans from banks because they make enough money with the Interest they charge. I obviously said we didn't want PPI but it was made crystal clear that the loan would not be approved if we did not take out the PPI and debenture. The three of us were non the wiser and we therefore agreed. I admit I was completely naive in the early days of business and I trusted the bank implicitly.
When we set up the business I was completely transparent with everything about my business (I wanted to succeed) and I was of the belief that our "Small Business Advisor" was a service that HSBC offered to small businesses, to HELP small businesses, much like a Citizens Advice Beaureu. I often used to phone my Small Business Advisor asking questions about should I or should I not take this project on at this price etc. I remember the first time I felt really kind of foolish when his answer was "I can't help you with those decisions". I asked, in a genuinely surprised way "Well what is a Small Business Advisor meant to do then? Sorry, I am lost, I don't want to waste your time or mine. I thought it was a service to help me succeed in business" and he explained it was more about offering a personal service for lending money/overdrafts etc. so we knew the person we were dealing with. That's the only thing I can agree on looking back... personal it was. Very personal indeed. We knew our Small Business Advisor by first name and foolishly we told him every business prospect we had in the pipeline, every thought or avenue we were pursuing. I told him everything. Still to this day his name comes up regularly in conversations between myself and my business partners at the time as probably the most rutheless person we ever encountered in business.
Looking back now I realise I was very naive to even think a service llike that would be offered by a commercial entity. I had been sold by TV advertising and the like. However, for many years my small business advisor (I remember his name to this day but will refrain from posting it on here) basically stung me for numerous PPI policies and charges that I never requested, often protested against and always reluctantly agreed to because we needed overdrafts, small loans or whatever, to survive.
Over the period of about 2 years 1999 - 2001 I probably had about 3-5 PPI policies forced on me, in return for extensions of overdrafts, which were always converted to personal loans, if we were in any way late with our payments and likewise we had what HSBC called Commercial Cards at the time. These were "sold" to us along with the non optional Payment Protection Insurance (we only asked for an overdraft of a few hundred pounds to see us through a project and ended up with £6,000 worth of credit over 2 cards).
Anyway... I can remember 2 specific times when I questioned PPI;
Once was when we asked for an extension to our overdraft and I was told we had borrowed too much (maybe a couple of thousand pounds between 2 of us at the time - of course with PPI included) and we were told they would only give us money if they transfered the overdraft to a personal loan. Reluctantly I agreed and I can still remember to this day being sat in my Small Business Advisors office on a friday afternoon, worried I was going to go out of business over such a small ammount of money... him totting up the monthly payments... and then without even making eye contact with me he said "and then there is XXXX ammount for Payment Protection Insurance". I was livid.. It was was meant to be a small short term overdraft and I was now being lumbered with a personal loan with PPI and other charges and interest that would take me approx 3 years to pay off. The PPI was the final part that made me protest, as I said above my Dad had always told me "DON'T TAKE INSURANCE from BANKS because they make enough money on the Interest" I said "This is unfair, I don't want the Insurance" - I had conceeded defeat about it being a personal loan by now and without a single word or even making eye contact with me (I can still clearly picture it to this day) he continued totting up the numbers without removing the PPI and then passed the sheet of paper with the monthly repayments on them over to me. I either had to sign the dotted line or go bankrupt. Reluctantly, angrily, I signed.
This was the final straw for my business partner and he left the company. I was left on my own, very determined, still very naive. I had been offered a job project in America and told my SBA that I would be taking that project as it was a good way of me making some profit that would help clear my debts. He was happy with this.
A few weeks later I recieved a call from my Small Business Advisor.. he requested a meeting. I went in to meet him and he told me he was converting everything to another personal loan as he was not confident I could clear my overdraft and commercial cards in time. This totalled about £10,000 when consolidated (please bear in mind we probably took about £40,000 in our first year with no major expenses and probably slightly more in the second year - other than our basic salaries and rent - not bad for a start up) but via converting everything to personal loans what had started as a, small, small business loan and over draft had now escalated. I had been completely demotivated by the bank and even though I protested that this was unfair as they kept making money out of me, I was told there was no choice in the matter.
He added up the figures, included the PPI and reluctantly I signed the dotted line. At this point I had to seriously address my financial situation. The bank had me over a barrel. I worked out that about £4000 of the £1000 was bank charges, insurance and interest that had been applied over time. I ended up doing a 6 month freelance contract with the objective being to clear the £10,000 personal debt. I was advised that if I could clear that debt he would start everything and give me a personal loan so I could complete my project in America. I was motivated..for six months I swallowed my pride and worked for another company on a freelance basis and paid off every single penny of the £10,000. I was ready to start a fresh, no debts, new country for a few months and the prospect of making profit on this project.
Two days before I was set to head abroad I got a call from him. He requested a meeting. I knew by now this meant I was going to be shafted but I never saw what he had planned. He said he was calling in my debenture as he was not confident that I would return from the USA (even though I had stayed in touch with him for 2 years, he knew my family, he knew where I lived). In calling in the debetnture it meant that he could not issue another business loan. HOWEVER... he could, of course, issue a personal loan because my credit was good.
I was furious. I had to either cancel the project in America and basically call it a day or accept ANOTHER personal loan, with insurance and all the charges that came with it. I had no choice. I signed the dotted line.
This really was the final straw. I made all my payments and took out another loan a few years later, again saddled with PPI. I remember this time saying on the phone (I can't remember if it was him or someone else I was dealing with by now) "Please, do I have to have the insurance? You guys always make me have it and I have never made a claim" - I was told "Yes" I had to have it. By now I was kind of trained to accept it, even though I never ever once requested it.
So..that's a brief summary... sorry a long message.
So where am I at now?
Well a couple of weeks ago I decided I wanted to see where I stand on this because quite frankly I feel HSBC and my Small Business Advisor manipulated me into taking business loans and then in them converting them to personal loans again and again they charged me multiple times for PPI, interest, setting up fee's etc. Now realising what has escalated with the whole PPI sistuation I wonder if there is any legal ground I may have?
So I phoned HSBC and asked for any finromation on loans they may have that I took out under my company and personal names. I was told it was too far back, they didn't have that information. I explained I did not believe that was the case as I was a LTD company and I have to save my VAT and Tax returns for 7 years and I could not believe that HSBC just hit delete after 7 years and all company and personal information is wiped from history. The advisor told me that WAS the case. I then put on my much smarter/wiser head and said.. "Can I have your name, contact number and division you work in with HSBC please. She gave me said information. I then said "I want you to confirm, on record as I will be pursuing this in writing, that you have offered me every possible option to access my old company loan information in regards me making possibly multiple PPI claims against HSBC". She changed her story very quickly and told me... I can in fact contact;
The Regulated Sales Complaints Team
120 Red Cliff Quay
Red Cliff Street
Bristol
BS1 6HU
10th Aug 2005 is furthest back the HSBC system goes. Mention this in letter so they check the archives.
She told gave me a loan number for a personal loan I had in 2007 and of course there was PPI on that. However... my question...
All the above... is there anything I can do? Can I start a civil case against HSBC? How do I claim for multiple PPI's that date back past the 7 year date, without actually knowing every single bit of specific information about what he said to me etc when selling me PPI. I am certain in these few years I had PPI on my £10,000 loan. I had PPI on my £6000 commercial cards and I had PPI on every other loan that was approved. Should I contact a company that can help make a claim like this? It seems a shame that I did the first claim with Halifax and it was approved in 48 hours to the sum of about £3500. This money was my money that was taken, ruthlessly from me... was it even legal? Any advice would be most appreciated.
I always said to myself HSBC were the worst business people I ever dealt with and I dealt with some pretty rutheless people in the dot com bubble of the '90's but our small business advisor stands head and shoulders above them all for sheer tenacity and ability to take money from us, no matter how much we protested.
For the record I was charged something by HSBC and that was that... I went to Halifax, explained my situation and they gave me a loan (of course telling me I had to have PPI because I was freelance - that was the claim I made last year) and I took the whole loan, in cash, into HSBC Canary Wharf and paid off every penny to HSBC, in cash, over the counter on a busy lunch time. I remember them calling out the Assistant Manager to try and talk me out of it... I won't say in a public forum what I told him but a few people in the queue behind me had a smile on tehir faces when I said it and walked out, wiping my hands of HSBC. If I could in any way pursue this it would really mean a lot... and not just financially, yes, of course I would love the money but this is personal. I want to check every available resource out there for me now that this who debacle has come to light.
Any help appreciated.
0
Comments
-
I should ammend:
"I ended up doing a 6 month freelance contract with the objective being to clear the £10,000 personal debt. I was advised that if I could clear that debt he would start everything and give me a - BUSINESS - loan so I could complete my project in America.
Also:
Two days before I was set to head abroad I got a call from him. He requested a meeting. I knew by now this meant I was going to be shafted but I never saw what he had planned. He said he was calling in my debenture as he was not confident that I would return from the USA (even though I had stayed in touch with him for 2 years, he knew my family, he knew where I lived). In calling in the debetnture it meant that he could not issue another business loan. HOWEVER... he could, of course, issue a personal loan because my credit was good.
- I would like to add to this that I was living in London at the time and I had Visa's for America for up to five years with the intention being that I would spend a minimum of 6 weeks there working on a project (Making a documentary) but it would probably be about a year. I kept him up to date on everything, even including purchasing my flights and letting the contract finish on my rented apartment. I had popped home with my Mum and Dad for a few days before leaving for the USA. He knew every single detail about this... and he had OK'd everything as I went along with my plan. Hence when he phoned 2 days before I was leaving it was a complete underhand tactic to get one last loan and policy out of me. By now I cannot experess my dissdain for the guy. What were initially friendly jovial meetings were now intimidating and completely business like. I remember that last meeting... he looked older than I remember, it had been a while since were face to face and he had screwed me over many times. He knew he had beaten me and his final kick in the teeth was to call in the debenture (with no notice whatsoever and for one last time convert everything to a personal loan). I am certain he knew what he was doing was wrong but he knew with me having given up my apartment and tickets in hand there was nothing I could or would do at the time. THAT'S why I am so determined to follow this through to the fullest extent. He beat me while I was down and continued holding me down. A few years later I am now a father and I have survived and am a lot stronger than I was then.... I am ready to get my payback! Any advice REALLY appreciated
0 -
You just follow the same steps as every other potential PPI complainant. First see if you can dig out any old paperwork from these loans; almost anything could prove useful including statements but most especially loan agreements. If none of this is possible, then don't despair, write HSBC a Subject Access Request (SAR) letter for which there is an excellent template here;Can I start a civil case against HSBC? How do I claim for multiple PPI's that date back past the 7 year date, without actually knowing every single bit of specific information about what he said to me etc when selling me PPI. I am certain in these few years I had PPI on my £10,000 loan. I had PPI on my £6000 commercial cards and I had PPI on every other loan that was approved.
forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=1475553
It costs £10 and they have 40 days to comply. It will list all loans and credit cards you held with them at least as far as 6 years ago, but often longer
Armed with any loan account and PPI policy numbers you can then look for reasons to complain about the mis-sale of PPI. During the period in question almost all PPI was "front loaded" onto loans so that it was paid as a single monthly payment and attracted extra interest as a result. This is probably your most potent reason for complaint if you can find evidence of this amongst your paperwork.
If not, again don't despair, go to this link and look for any other reasons which may apply
http://www.moneysavingexpert.com/reclaim/ppi-loan-insurance
Follow the simple steps and complain. You already have the address to send your complaint.
Good luck in your quest and thanks for your long rant about HSBC and their "ruthless" staff member.;)
Feel better now?:)0 -
Moneyineptitude wrote: »Feel better now?:)
I LOVE you guys... you ALWAYS make me feel better.
Thank you very much. I will diligently follow the links and let you know how it goes.
Regards0
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