New gas fire & flue advice

Klug

Hi, we have a very cold north facing lounge. We have bought a new gas fire due to be installed in the next couple of weeks in an attempt to warm the room. As we have no chimney opening (chimney removed at 1st floor level) we have to have a ventilation flue fitted to an outside wall to enable oxygen to get in. We have been advised by our gas boiler fitter to make sure the flue has a baffle in it to stop the cold air rushing into the room from outside. However, the company fitting the fire say in order to sign off the installation legally they cannot fit a flue with a baffle as it stops the air circulating.
Any ideas how we can meet both ideals please? Need to have the flue and be legal but don't want to freeze even more than we do now in that room.
Any ideas gratefully received. Thanks.

southcoastrgi

i am guessing your "boiler fitter" isn't able to fit fires on his gas safe reg, from your describtion i'm guessing you are talking about a flueless gas fire that uses a cat convertor to deal with the fumes & yes these not only require a permenant vent in the wall (which will let loads of cold air in & alot of people cover these over with a plastic bag highly dangerious unless you want to kill yourself) but can only be installed in a large enough room, is there no outside wall that you could use to fit a fan flued model ?

IMO these fires should have been outlawed years ago cause if the cat & safety controls fail they are deadly.

rustyboy21

keithgillyon wrote: »

i am guessing your "boiler fitter" isn't able to fit fires on his gas safe reg, from your describtion i'm guessing you are talking about a flueless gas fire that uses a cat convertor to deal with the fumes & yes these not only require a permenant vent in the wall (which will let loads of cold air in & alot of people cover these over with a plastic bag highly dangerious unless you want to kill yourself) but can only be installed in a large enough room, is there no outside wall that you could use to fit a fan flued model ?

IMO these fires should have been outlawed years ago cause if the cat & safety controls fail they are deadly.

I know we have had a run in in the past Keith, But I couldn't have said it better myself, Flueless fires are a death trap in waiting.

OP What is the fire you have bought, Could it be a balanced flue product? If it is Balanced Flue, it is a sealed unit, so you wont end up with any cold air coming in.

It could also be a Power flue fire. These have a flue duct to the outside wall, with an elctric fan unit on the outside wall to pull the fumes though. Apart from the horrible noise they make as the fan is going, you will also get backdraft from the vents in the fan to let the fumes out. Your installer is correct, you cannot fit a diverter or baffle to the fan unit, it would block up the fumes means of escape.

If you tell us what make and model the fire is, we can advise you better.

Klug

Hi and thanks for your advice. We have bought a Magiglo Empathy flueless fire. I'm worried now!

rustyboy21

Klug wrote: »

Hi and thanks for your advice. We have bought a Magiglo Empathy flueless fire. I'm worried now!

Out of the flueless fires you could have bought, you have gone for the better of them. Magiglo is owned by Burley and their's is slightly better than others.

If you would have said Eko fires/Superior fires/Focal point ( All the same company) I would be doing this :eek::eek::eek::eek::eek: !!!!

Few pointers to take into account....
1. You WILL need FIXED open airvents, you cannot cover them up, you cannot divert the breeze you cannot make them draught free. I haven't sold a flueless in years, but I think you have to have 2 airvents fitted now ( Ireland). Airvents cannot be closer than 1m from fire and cannot be hidden behind furniture or curtains.

2. Have the installers measured your room, to make sure it is the legal requirement to have one fitted ( possible get out clause) got to be at least 30 m cubed

3. You say you have a cold room already. It is not going to warm it much( 2.5kw). To run a flueless gas fire correctly, the air passing through the fire, has to be already at an ambient temperature. This means that it has to be warmed up first by Radiators. Failure to do this means that you will end up with a lot of condensation in your room ( possible damp/mould) ( On coving, outside walls etc)

4. They are designed to SUPPLEMENT Central Heating, not to be used instead of it. i.e has to be used in conjunction with CH.

In conclusion, If you can cancel it and choose something different, I would seriously suggest it. If you have it fitted, when it comes to servicing ( which is a must with a flueless fire every 12 months ) you will be hard pressed to find an engineer to do it for you. You need special eqpt to check catylitic convertors on them. If BG won't touch them, that says a lot.

I would seriously rethink and get a balanced flue fire instead. No vents, room sealed ( no draughts ) Use without CH

Klug

Hi Rustyboy21

So many thanks for your great advice. The room has a double radiator in it already so the air should be at an ok temperature for the fire I think.
We have no chimney available (chimney breast which doesn't go anywhere, cut off at ceiling height). This is why we were told we needed a flueless fire.
I'm guessing that just over a week away from installation anyway, we would not be in an ok position to cancel the order...!
Our room measures 3.5m x 4.0m (into a square bay), so will have to ask about the cubic measure as don't know how to work it out sorry.
Thanks once again.

rustyboy21

If you measure the width,length and height of your room and multiply them all togther, that will give you your cubic metres.

As said before, you are buying one of the better ones, but you have to be realistic in your expectations. They don't give off a vast amount of heat and the restrictions you have in order to run it correctly are evry severe.

Before it is fitted, have a read of the following, especially pages 3,4 and 5. Make sure the installer fits the fire TO THE BOOK, not skipping any procedures ( they have a tendency to do that sometimes).Don't let them use the fact that you have the flue blocked up upstairs, as an excuse to not seal the chamber the fire fits into properly, read through the installer guide first and watch them like a hawk for any shortcuts. The insatllers guide is designed for a purpose, to make sure the fire is fitted correctly and safely.

http://www.magiglo.co.uk/images/downloads/Empathy%2016%20Inst%20User%20Instructions%20Feb10.pdf

And get it serviced, without fail every 12 months

There has been a lot of discussion on here over the years ref flueless gas fires and safety. Some for , a lot against. The majority of sales of Flueless in the UK comes from Internet sales ( Approx 90%) . Retailers don't like fitting them as they usually get a lot of callbacks with things like ... not hot enough, draught through vent,cutting out, condensation etc.

If you bought it from a retailer, ask them how many they have sold in past 12 months, how many have their installers fitted, if you feel comfortable with their answers then you make your mind up.

Klug

Thanks once again Rustyboy 21, we have bought from a well known and respected local retailer (fire specialists not DIY store).
Will read the details as you advise and thanks once again.

gas4you

The air vent has to be 100cm2 free air for a flueless gas fire. Non closable and no insect screen fitted to it.

I won't fit flueless fires. Period. Not even if I was offered £10k.

And yes I am qualified for fitting all types of domestic fires, before anyone asks.

Ben84

I'm surprised by the not so positive opinion on these fires. I wouldn't be too keen on one due to the increased humidity and need for an air brick, but I wouldn't have worried about safety. Venting gas burners of a few kW or less in to the house doesn't seem such a worry as I've been doing it for years with my gas cooker and hob without any problems. I have a CO detector and know the burner flames should be blue, not yellow, to indicate the gas is burning fully. However, I've had no safety problems in many years of cooking with gas. Are these fires different to cookers in some way?

rustyboy21

Ben84 wrote: »

I'm surprised by the not so positive opinion on these fires. I wouldn't be too keen on one due to the increased humidity and need for an air brick, but I wouldn't have worried about safety. Venting gas burners of a few kW or less in to the house doesn't seem such a worry as I've been doing it for years with my gas cooker and hob without any problems. I have a CO detector and know the burner flames should be blue, not yellow, to indicate the gas is burning fully. However, I've had no safety problems in many years of cooking with gas. Are these fires different to cookers in some way?

One thing you have to look at , is that you don't usually have you cooker hob on for extended periods of time, like a fire. The other thing is that a kitchen is usually more open plan and liable to have more ventilation than a lounge would. Also, look at your cooker, like a bunsen burner in school ( remember, blue flame hot, yellow flame cooler ? ) a blue flame is known as fully aerated, meaning that the gas and air are mixed together prior to combustion, so there is what is known as complete combustion ( cleaner burning of the gas).

When there is a yellow flame, this means that the gas is mixing with the air After combustion, this creates more fumes, and more carbon monoxide. That is why you are always told a boiler,fire,cooker with yellow flames is dangerous. It is known as incomplete combustion. It creates soot ( carbon) and changes carbon dioxide into carbon monoxide ( I think I have that right ! lol).

The major factor with Flueless fires is that although the original flame comes out blue, it thn mixes with air and the flames will tinge yellow. You need the airbrick to compensate for the exhaust fumes and to keep the ventilation in that room better.

If you don't run one with the correct ambient room temperature, i.e radiators on full to heat a large room, then it will create a hell of a lot of water vapour, which cools down in the room, causing condensation. That is why all the manufacturers state in VERY small writing on their ads that it is not classed as a primary heatsource and only as a backup to properley run CH.

There was a case a few years ago, in which a young girl and her dog were found dead in a flat they lived in. It was fitted by an engineer ( not Gasafe) who fitted it to instructions. When it went to court, he was found guilty of , I think manslaughter. The rumour in the fireplace industry was that he was made a scapegoat, as they said he should have adjusted the gas valve and burner on fitting. They didn't take into account the manufacturers instrustions which said they were factory set already and not to mess with them. The same manufacturer still plies it's flueless products through the DIY sheds and internet retailers. Imagine how many of these have actually been fitted by inexperienced, unqualified engineers, or DIY people who think they only need to put a gas pipe to it.

British gas took the decision 3 years ago, to not offer these products and not to service them, as they feel they are unsafe. If BG are doing that and losing possibly £1000's each year on servicing/installing then that says something to me.

Lastly the quote that they are 100% efficient, was contradicted by the Energy savings trust, when they did a report on efficiencies of all heating appliances. They state that they are in fact 27% efficient, as you have to factor in the cost of heating your radiators, to make the room temperature to the required level in order for the fire to operate correctly. That defeates the objective of having a fire to give you heat, when you have to heat your room to at least 16 deg, before that Cats on them operate correctly

As you can see, I am one of the many retailers in the country who refuse to sell them, due to the issues with use and the danger we feel comes with them. It comes to something that , we have our annual trade show in a few weeks, in which 100's of manufacturers show their products to us in the trade. In the past 5 years, None of the Fluless gas fire manufacturers show their products there. That is the feeling us in the industry have over these appliances, we don't like them, they are an American design, which is suited to American houses, not our brick built 2 up 2 down types of house, which they are usually fitted in over here. Our houses where never designed for them.