Parking ticket received from a PPC

balderdash12

Hello

I received a parking ticket the other day from Capital2Coast. I parked in the car park, went into a nearby store round the corner to get some change to pay for the ticket, walked back out when I saw the queue and by the time I got back to my car (around 3-4 minutes after I left it), I had a parking ticket waiting for me with the warden nowhere in sight.

Considering the warden had to take the car's details and a picture of my windscreen, he must have jumped on the car as soon as I was out of sight.

Since I didn't at the time know the difference between a ticket from a PPC and the council, I sent a appeal off but it was rejected with a standard letter that ignored all the points of my appeal. Foolishly, in the appeal, I mentioned that I didn't immediately go a ticket machine (was worried I would be caught out lying by CCTV or the warden's personal statement).

Now that they have some of my personal info and a consession of sorts that I didn't go to a ticket machine straight away, is it still smart to avoid paying? I'd really prefer to avoid going to court over this.

Stephen_Leak

It is still very smart to avoid paying and you will avoid going to court.

Just ignore the ever more threatening letters they will send you. Eventually, they will run out of unpleasantness to threaten you with, and realise that they're throwing good money after bad.

balderdash12

Stephen_Leak wrote: »

It is still very smart to avoid paying and you will avoid going to court.

Just ignore the ever more threatening letters they will send you. Eventually, they will run out of unpleasantness to threaten you with, and realise that they're throwing good money after bad.

Ok, thanks.

Are there any known instances of Capital2Connect taking people to the small claims court?

Also, if I did get a court notice, would the fact that I have admitted that I didn't go straight to a ticket machine (even though I planned to pay) in paper mean that I would lose the case or are there other effective defenses that can be made against this type of notice even when you are 'in breach of contract'.

Kite2010

All the landowner can sue for you is whatever the displayed pay & display rates are, so if you were in the car-park for 30 minutes and the fee for parking for 1 hour is 60p, you were owe 30p. However they have waived their rights for this money by demanding a contractual penalty.

You can pay up and be threaten further by more demands for money citing late payment fees, or you can just ignore them and in the very unlikely event they decide to take you to court you can get a defence

However it is likely it is not in their business plan to do court as that is more money down the drain.

balderdash12

Kite2010 wrote: »

All the landowner can sue for you is whatever the displayed pay & display rates are, so if you were in the car-park for 30 minutes and the fee for parking for 1 hour is 60p, you were owe 30p. However they have waived their rights for this money by demanding a contractual penalty.

You can pay up and be threaten further by more demands for money citing late payment fees, or you can just ignore them and in the very unlikely event they decide to take you to court you can get a defence

However it is likely it is not in their business plan to do court as that is more money down the drain.

So, even if they have stated a fixed penalty in terms and conditions on a nearby sign for 'breach of contract', this penalty can't be enforced unless they can prove that it represents the landowner's potential losses?

Is there a precedence of this being shown or specific law that states this? Just would like to be sure for peace of mind.

Kite2010

Interesting article on Contractual penalties
http://www.gillhams.com/articles/326.cfm
http://www.gillhams.com/articles/192.cfm

It's written in contract law and in a court-case between Dunlop and another party.

Stephen_Leak

balderdash12 wrote: »

So, even if they have stated a fixed penalty in terms and conditions on a nearby sign for 'breach of contract', this penalty can't be enforced unless they can prove that it represents the landowner's potential losses?

Is there a precedence of this being shown or specific law that states this? Just would like to be sure for peace of mind.

The Unfair Contract Terms Act 1997

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1977/50

I lend you £10. You agree to pay it back by a given date. You don't. I ring you to remind you. I could add the cost of the phone call to the debt. If you still don't pay, I could sue you.

But, if I demand £100, this is unreasonable, and becomes an unfair contractual penalty and legally unenforceable.

Only councils, police and Transport for London can impose fines or penalties for parking offences. Private companies can't, no more than you or I can.

PPCs will threaten you that they might apply for court proceedings, and advise you of all the possible consequenses, to try and get you to pay up. But they can't actually do it, for the same reason that a blackmailer can't sue you for non-payment.

One PPC tried this on in court recently. The judge found that their demand was unlawful contractual penalty and found in favour of the driver. However, as he hadn't paid in a pay car park, and hadn't offered the charge in "full and final settlement", he left the judge with no option other than to award the PPC the £15 involved. However, he also left them with their costs of ~£4000. They haven't taken anyone to court since.

Due to the relatively low amounts involved, all these cases are dealt with in the county courts. These don't set legal precedents, although previous judgements can be referred to.

But this "cuts both ways". PPCs have "won" cases by default. If the victim has moved and their letters are returned, they know that they can take them to court, the court papers will probably also be returned and the victim probably won't attend the court to defend themselves. The legal system doesn't do draws. OK, they claim these as victories, but it doesn't set a legal precedent either.

give_them_FA

As I understand it, Balderdash, you actually did buy a ticket and paid for your parking BEFORE you realised that this Lightning McQueen attendant had stuck a ticket on? So the landowner's loss is non-existent? Just ignore it. And park somewhere else in future if that's the sort of welcome they give you.

Coupon-mad

balderdash12 wrote: »

So, even if they have stated a fixed penalty in terms and conditions on a nearby sign for 'breach of contract', this penalty can't be enforced unless they can prove that it represents the landowner's potential losses?

Is there a precedence of this being shown or specific law that states this? Just would like to be sure for peace of mind.

What about watching Tim Cary, Solicitor and his appearance on Watchdog telling people all about the lack of law to support this scam?

It's in the sticky thread 'PPC letters & threats' second to top of the forum (see my signature, the forum view being just one click away from any thread). That's what the stickies are at the top of the forum for. Pics of all the letters to expect are there as well, it's all covered.

These companies do very well because enough uninformed people, scared victims, or downright clueless idiots, pay them. Don't be one of those!

ManxRed

Just Google 'Contractual Penalties'.

These private companies are not covered by legislation relating to parking, meaning they must rely on contract law to 'police' private car parks.

Unfortunately, contract law does not allow for punitive damages (i.e. anything over and above actual losses - or a genuine pre-estimate of actual losses - as this could be interpreted as a deterrent to prevent breach by one of the parties. Such punitive damages, are deemed contract penalties and are unenforceable under contract law and have been for centuries.

The parking companies are hoping that your average member of the public doesn't know this, otherwise their business model collapses!

Most people don't know this, but now you do.

bondy_lad

why on earth do you think someone issuing a FAKE ticket/loo paper,at the same time trying to SCAM you would take you to court?????? its a like a murderer trying to break back into the prison from which he escaped,,just ignore and all the nonsense threat o grams to follow.there you go, relax now.jobs a good un,,feet up.