Dutch cabinet resigns over collapse of austeriy talks

Conrad

HAMISH_MCTAVISH wrote: »

Proof that you can indeed borrow and spend your way out of a depression though. Even if most of what you spend money on you then destroy.

Isn't the whole core issue with Europe, bound up with this notion we feel entitled to a hugely more lavish social contrcat than that of a Chinese worker and that this featherbedding is funded through debt which the world will not pay for - i'e' a S Korean sees no reason to overpay for British goods just because our cost base is so high thanks to a lavish social contract and debt mountain?


Is not the world telling Spain et-al, that thier social contract high cost high regulation model is no longer possible?

Would you invest your own capital in a Spannish factory given the choice? To allocate your capital to fund a lavish social contract rather than sweating your captial?


We and a few other developed nations had the world to ourselves in the late 40's, now we must compete with many others.

How sure are you that further borrowing is the answer?
Sure the US has recently followed keynsian model, but at vast trillion dollar debt costs.

pqrdef

A._Badger wrote: »

So, some history is meaningless and 'what ifs' pointless, yet a grotesquely mangled version of events is grist to the mill?

Wasn't me who started talking about who pays for what. I only pointed out how silly that gets. No generation can quantify its debt to previous generations. And no generation knows what future generations will be able to afford.

grizzly1911

pqrdef wrote: »

Wasn't me who started talking about who pays for what. I only pointed out how silly that gets. No generation can quantify its debt to previous generations. And no generation knows what future generations will be able to afford.

Not only that the the populace didn't knowingly vote for policies that would be part of the reason we are in the state we are in now.

Most voters haven't any real clue what they are voting for and if they do the manifestos are often ditched and the parties go off on different tangents.

Thatcher decimation , as you point out, speeded up our decline moving away from manufacturing to the "easy fruits" of finance. Consigning hundreds of thousands of people to no real job going forward.

The current Government is offloading in advance these days looking at tuition fees for example.

Good look to N1AK in providing every thing for himself going forward because unless you amass great wealth you will not do it. You can also dwell on the fact that from your personal pension contributions something like 40% will have been swallowed up in operating costs and profit.

Collectively works on many fronts because it spreads the burden and don't forget vast numbers never actually benefit as they pass away long before they would collect. Why do you think insurance works and great profits are made out of it?

Lack of exports, too much "unnecessary" consumption of imports and mass unemployment are dragging this country down. If those were normalised then there is every chance the social contract would be managed without the knee jerk reactions now being seen.

Generali

HAMISH_MCTAVISH wrote: »

Proof that you can indeed borrow and spend your way out of a depression though. Even if most of what you spend money on you then destroy.

Given the 14 years of rationing and huge drop in disposable income and living standards faced by many families during that period, I think this shows that economic well being is badly measured by GDP and that Government borrowing to prop up GDP is self defeating.

HAMISH_MCTAVISH

Generali wrote: »

Government borrowing to prop up GDP is self defeating.

I would partially agree..... If all it's doing is propping things up then it's not enough to kick start a sustainable recovery. Although I still argue that enough stimulus can indeed kick start an economy, and if it's not working then chances are it's not enough.

However Government borrowing to invest in projects that will improve the competitiveness of the country would not be self defeating. Most infrastructure would fall into that category, as would investment in education and training of the populace at large.

A._Badger

HAMISH_MCTAVISH wrote: »

However Government borrowing to invest in projects that will improve the competitiveness of the country would not be self defeating. Most infrastructure would fall into that category, as would investment in education and training of the populace at large.

We have"invested" in education - massively, The depressing results (in terms of literacy alone) are all over this forum.

What we need is wiser spending, not more of it.

Thrugelmir

grizzly1911 wrote: »

Thatcher decimation , as you point out, speeded up our decline moving away from manufacturing to the "easy fruits" of finance. Consigning hundreds of thousands of people to no real job going forward.

Japan was revolutionary in the way it developed manufacturing. Use of robotics, computerised machine tools, automated car production lines etc.

Red Robbo and his cronies ( ala Bob Crowe) brought down the British car industry.