Dutch cabinet resigns over collapse of austeriy talks

kabayiri

Trust.

In my view it all comes down to this.

'Markets', the 'Eurozone experiment', 'ECB' and 'IMF' and 'Central Banks' interventions, oh and the new 'treaty' on fiscal austerity.

The voters in Europe have heard all these terms, and more, as ways in which to solve the economic crisis. And yet on the ground it seems like nothing is working.

No wonder the politicians are losing the trust of the people. When this happens they should worry, and worry a lot. History shows that people turn to those fringe groups who offer 'magic bullet' solutions, and who blame visible elements for all our ills. The obvious blame candidate is immigration.

pqrdef

Well Europe is at the crossroads now, and I think its destiny will be chosen before the end of this year.

The choice is between trying to get out of its hole by greater co-operation and collectivism, or by states increasingly re-asserting their sovereignty and going their own way.

At present Europe is just a rabbit caught in the headlights, paralysed with fear of moving in either direction.

But its politicians can't go on much longer spouting the rhetoric of the European project while not doing anything about it.

Bond investors want to know that they'll get their money. But the eurozone won't take collective responsibility for its members debts, while the member states have lost control of their money, trade, and budgets, and so they no longer have the wherewithal to manage their own credit-worthiness. Something has to give.

If the Germans will not understand that the aim of the European project is not for them to enrich themselves at the expense of the rest of Europe, then the European project is doomed and we're in for an outbreak of nationalism.

It will not be pretty, and people will come to regret it. And at the end of it all, the European project will be started up again, because a Europe of nation states will never be other than a war zone.

pqrdef

Graham_Devon wrote: »

They were talking about printing money on the radio earlier. It seems a real option now. One which Germany won't like, but the preferable option to the end of the Euro for those who won't like it.

So long as the eurozone won't commit to collectively guaranteeing the debts of member states, there isn't any point in printing euros.

heathcote123

Wookster wrote: »

I think Europe will resort to Zimbabweanesque economic policy when faced with the 'easy option' (firing up the printing presses & inflation) and then 'hard option.'

Yup, it's coming. The trick is going to be in timing it to have a big mortgage when it all kicks off.

A._Badger

chewmylegoff wrote: »

Anti-immigration loonies aren't necessarily right-wingers in an the sense of their economic policies.

Very much the point I was making to StevieJ. The notion of Right-Left is outmoded and less than helpful when trying to understand what is going on.

What is 'Right wing' about the BNP's economic policies, which seem to be more akin to old Labour's than anything else? How 'Right Wing' are libertarian social polices?

Or are we in BBC territory where 'Right wing' means 'anything we don't approve of'?

pqrdef

A._Badger wrote: »

Very much the point I was making to StevieJ. The notion of Right-Left is outmoded and less than helpful when trying to understand what is going on.

Wouldn't be surprised to see a lot of the French far-Right vote switch to the "far Left".

And where do we put George Galloway.

Not a lot of true left-wing voters out there nowadays. The ideas no longer have much appeal and don't have much circulation outside academic circles. Doubt if France is much different.

If Hollande wins, it'll be described as France lurching to the left, but really it'll be more the other way.

Conrad

Itismehonest wrote: »

We've lived way beyond our means & now many can't understand that the money to keep that up just isn't there.


I've no idea what will happen when everything collapses in the Euro zone but, in some ways, it may be exactly what is needed.
Nothing upsets the markets like uncertainty & that's what we've had for years now.

I'm making these points in a similar thread in DT here, but I keep comming up against the argument we need to be making the rich feel more pain, to wit we go round in circles with me arguing that in the end this would result in higher unemployment and interest rates, contraction and under investment as the rich sit on thier capital instead of investing.


I'm now at the point of actually getting sick of these simplistic 'get the rich' arguments so I'm saying let the socialists win in France and Holand and sit back and see what real anger looks like when unemployent and interest rates rise.

Europeans are featherbedded and wedded solidly to this idea they are entitled to a generous social contract whilst forgetting the rest of the world dont want to fund those things through thier buying habits. Europeans are in some sort of denial phase where all ills are simply solved by more borrowing and getting the rich.

I've long dealt with rich folk (often they are counted as poor in official income stats), and I can assure people that the more Tax rises, the more cunning they become.
I have to admit I'm now actively seeking to minimise my own Tax, so sick am I of this entitlement culture where all around me hold thier hands out whilst I slave away at work. Also the compensation culture makes me even more determined not to give money to Governments that finds it's way to lazy fools that claim compensation from Govt departments and employers and that gets mpaid in long term sick leave to council workers with a broken leg whereas I was back at work 2 days after breaking mine. It's all getting really sickening and I feel like I'm at the point of wanting to put 2 fingers up to all the wasters.

We are lately getting a wave of new European immigrants through our letting agency here, all of whom are claiming HB. This is another symptom of the entitlement culture that is becomming a mainstream lifestyle magnet.

Isn't it time us workers rebelled for once?

FTBFun

A._Badger wrote: »

Very much the point I was making to StevieJ. The notion of Right-Left is outmoded and less than helpful when trying to understand what is going on.

What is 'Right wing' about the BNP's economic policies, which seem to be more akin to old Labour's than anything else? How 'Right Wing' are libertarian social polices?

Or are we in BBC territory where 'Right wing' means 'anything we don't approve of'?

To be fair, once you get to the extreme end of both political spectrums they tend to blend into each other. Nazism and Stalinism weren't that different except the former were a bit pickier of which of their own people they'd like to murder.

This is Godwin's law now isn't it?

purch

Wookster wrote: »

will lead to the long dreaded inflation that some of us have been predicting.

I thought you were starting to sound a bit more cheerful Wookie

pqrdef

Conrad wrote: »

I'm making these points in a similar thread in DT here, but I keep comming up against the argument we need to be making the rich feel more pain, to wit we go round in circles with me arguing that in the end this would result in higher unemployment and interest rates, contraction and under investment as the rich sit on thier capital instead of investing.

But we live in a society where there is a great deal of conspicuous extravagance, while at the same time, old people are told to $h1t themselves in their beds because nobody will help them get to a toilet.

There is something deeply and fundamentally wrong here (and the fact that by and large we don't much care isn't a good symptom either).

Fixing this demands that we find a way to afford a lot of basics before any extravagance can be tolerated. And if the rich don't like it, we must conclude that the wrong people are rich, and instead of mucking about with their taxes, we should simply confiscate their wealth, on the grounds that they don't deserve it. It's not carved in stone that a person's value is measured by his ability to line his own pockets.