Advice on Family Issues

noisysaver

Here's the situation in a nutshell, some details changed to preserve anonymity (don't know who's a member!)

My wife has a relative in care, he's been there for over 2 years and for about 2 years before that she cared for him in his house. Essentially she looks after his every need in terms of medical (because the care home are rubbish-she even diagnoses his problems!) monetary and of course emotional etc.

His actual direct family, children etc don't seem to care much about him. It's not helped by the fact that the majority of them live hundreds of miles away. They've never seemed at all concerned about the situation but as he gets nearer to death, the vultures are descending...

His house is already owned by one of his children and they have been dying to sell it ever since he was put into care. There has always been a slight chance that he may return but the longer he spends in the home the further that possibility seems and now they are champing at the bit to 'sell it from under him'. If he ever discovered this fact it would devastate him and probably finish him off since he pretty much talks about going home every 5 minutes. He's corpus mentis but does have difficulty understanding due to chronic deafness and extreme old age. He's 100.

Power of Attorney has already been arranged and my wife will deal with all that as the time comes. She has the full/lasting power of attorney covering all aspects of the estate and health. The family are now asking about all his financial details, despite owning the house, the greedy !!!!!!s want to get their hands on every last scrap of cash he has. He has told them everything is in the house but of course my wife has all the paperwork safely at home. They've ransacked the house looking for the details but of course have been unable to find them. They have simply been told that 'everything is in order' as it is.

So now, as per all their previous communication, they have had a solicitor write a letter asking for the paperwork, who has applied for power of attorney it there is such an arrangement and also demanding over £1000 for an electricity bill which is outstanding. Not a jot of care or enquiry about the health and wellbeing of the poor man, just purely money grabbing. The house has been unoccupied for over 2 years with the odd relative staying there and of course one of the children own it so surely any electric would be the responsibility of said owner? The bill has also been changed to reflect the elderly man's name but at the address of the house owners, which seems odd in itself. The meter was read before Christmas and the entire bill was settled as far as we are aware because the owner wanted to start work on renovating the house in order to sell it. They are saying that previous readings were wrong so a large bill has accumulated. There may well be a mistake here but I think it's outrageous they should be asking their elderly Dad to pay!

There are some other aspects about various bits of bequeathed property (not part of a will) within the house that I don't believe are legal issues so I won't mention them. What beggars belief is that they are arguing over them before he is dead.

So my question, after that rather long and complex nutshell, is do we even have to respond to this letter, given that their father is capable of answering them directly and no power of attorney is in place for my wife to have the capacity to answer for him? Should he have to pay the electricity bill in his name despite not living there for over 2 years when this surely should be the responsibility of the owner? There was no tenancy agreement, he was simply allowed to live in there until he died, all other aspects of the house were controlled by the owner outside of utility bills. It may seem a bit petty and stupid but we are simply responding to how they are dealing with this themselves. They seem to think my wife is now the only link with their father, yet they could call or visit whenever they like. Because of their past disgusting behaviour we do not want to have to address these problems but also want to protect the elderly chap from all this nonsense. The house is worth close to half a million, they are simply causing trouble because that's their style.

I'd love to get proper legal advice but we are not in a position right now to afford this, hence coming here for some guidance. Thanks in advance.

hardpressed

Have you seen the electricity bill that they are demanding £1000 for? Any bill should have been forward to him or your wife as she has power of attorney, they had no right to tell the electricity company to send bills to another address.

sassyblue

My replies in red, hope you don't mind it just makes reply easier, just read it back apols if it sounds abrupt, l am on your side but l think you haven't dealt with things too well....

Here's the situation in a nutshell, some details changed to preserve anonymity (don't know who's a member!)

My wife has a relative in care, he's been there for over 2 years and for about 2 years before that she cared for him in his house. Essentially she looks after his every need in terms of medical (because the care home are rubbish-she even diagnoses his problems!) monetary and of course emotional etc.

His actual direct family, children etc don't seem to care much about him. It's not helped by the fact that the majority of them live hundreds of miles away. They've never seemed at all concerned about the situation but as he gets nearer to death, the vultures are descending... That's their father. They live hundreds of miles away probably with busy families of their own and if he's 100 they've got to be in their 60s, 70's or 80's??

His house is already owned by one of his children and they have been dying to sell it ever since he was put into care. If this is the case, why haven't they sold it before now? They do have the legal right to do so... There has always been a slight chance that he may return but the longer he spends in the home the further that possibility seems and now they are champing at the bit to 'sell it from under him'. If he ever discovered this fact it would devastate him and probably finish him off since he pretty much talks about going home every 5 minutes. I understand what you're saying but if he doesn't own the house he must understand he has no rights to it? He's corpus mentis but does have difficulty understanding due to chronic deafness and extreme old age. He's 100.

Power of Attorney has already been arranged and my wife will deal with all that as the time comes. She has the full/lasting power of attorney covering all aspects of the estate and health. The family are now asking about all his financial details, as they have a right to despite owning the house, the greedy !!!!!!s want to get their hands on every last scrap of cash he has. Not sure why you're surprised about this, human nature sadly and it seems it IS their money. He has told them everything is in the house but of course my wife has all the paperwork safely at home. They've ransacked the house looking for the details but of course have been unable to find them. They have simply been told that 'everything is in order' as it is. Let's get one thing clear..... You seem to think your wife is owed something for everything she has done. Unless it's in his will she may not be and that is not fair but then life isnt. Why answer their questions with 'everything is in order?' why not give them copies (or originals!) of the paperwork? They must think you have something to hide!

So now, as per all their previous communication, they have had a solicitor write a letter asking for the paperwork, probably because they haven;t had the answers they wanted before now..... who has applied for power of attorney it there is such an arrangement and also demanding over £1000 for an electricity bill which is outstanding. Not a jot of care or enquiry about the health and wellbeing of the poor man it's a solicitors letter he's only concerned with legal matters, just purely money grabbing. The house has been unoccupied for over 2 years with the odd relative staying there and of course one of the children own it so surely any electric would be the responsibility of said owner? The bill has also been changed to reflect the elderly man's name but at the address of the house owners, which seems odd in itself. It is! This needs clarifying urgently - l you are right to smell a rat with that. Can you check the meter or supply number on the bill matches the ones to your elderly relatives house? The meter was read before Christmas and the entire bill was settled as far as we are aware because the owner wanted to start work on renovating the house in order to sell it. They are saying that previous readings were wrong so a large bill has accumulated. Could possibly be, were the meter readings checked by yourselves? There may well be a mistake here but I think it's outrageous they should be asking their elderly Dad to pay! No, not right. The house is owned by someone else so they must pay.

There are some other aspects about various bits of bequeathed property (not part of a will) within the house that I don't believe are legal issues so I won't mention them. What beggars belief is that they are arguing over them before he is dead. Sadly, human nature but what is wrong with getting alot of stuff done beforehand?

So my question, after that rather long and complex nutshell, is do we even have to respond to this letter, given that their father is capable of answering them directly and no power of attorney is in place for my wife to have the capacity to answer for him? She can write the letter and get the gentleman to sign it. Should he have to pay the electricity bill in his name despite not living there for over 2 years when this surely should be the responsibility of the owner? No he shouldn't pay! Doesn't matter a jot whose name it's in. There was no tenancy agreement, he was simply allowed to live in there until he died, No tenancy agreement and he doesn't own the house, they don't have a snowball's chance in Hell! all other aspects of the house were controlled by the owner outside of utility bills. It may seem a bit petty and stupid but we are simply responding to how they are dealing with this themselves. They seem to think my wife is now the only link with their father, yet they could call or visit whenever they like. Because of their past disgusting behaviour we do not want to have to address these problems but also want to protect the elderly chap from all this nonsense. The house is worth close to half a million, they are simply causing trouble because that's their style.

Okay.... l think your wife should tell her elderly relative what's going on, he needs to reply to that solicitors letter. Let him deal with his family and ask him to make a will out if he hasn't already. That's all you can do sadly. I've been in your shoes and it isn't fair but fair doesn't come into it, it's legalities that count.

HTH

noisysaver

That's their father. They live hundreds of miles away probably with busy families of their own and if he's 100 they've got to be in their 60s, 70's or 80's??

Details changed...

If this is the case, why haven't they sold it before now? They do have the legal right to do so

Because he may be able to return to it, (as mentioned) as remote as that maybe and it's what is keeping him going. Pressure from other family members have prevented them to date.

I understand what you're saying but if he doesn't own the house he must understand he has no rights to it?

The issue isn't the house, it's the demands for money and paperwork that are the issue.

as they have a right to

Are you sure about this? It's the crux of the issue. Maybe I should have mentioned that the father doesn't want them knowing his business because of the way they have behaved in the past and treated others within the family. If your children demanded that you show them your personal affairs, do they have a right to see them? I think not. This is what power of attorney is for and prevents.

Not sure why you're surprised about this, human nature sadly and it seems it IS their money.

No it's not, everything was changed in a will about 4 years ago so that none of the people involved in this disagreement are benefactors from anything in his estate.

Let's get one thing clear..... You seem to think your wife is owed something for everything she has done. Unless it's in his will she may not be and that is not fair but then life isnt. Why answer their questions with 'everything is in order?' why not give them copies (or originals!) of the paperwork? They must think you have something to hide!

My wife wants nothing from the estate which at the end of the day is a few hundred pounds. (the family don't know it's as little as this-they think it's much much more) She is doing this for the love of her grandfather who gave her som much when she was growing up. She's never taken a penny in recompense for the thing she has done for him in the last 20 years. As I said above, the father does not want the others seeing his financial affairs.

probably because they haven;t had the answers they wanted before now.


As mentioned they've only ever communicated by solicitor, it's their style - to all family members. They know they won't get a civil word face to face or over the phone because of the way they have behaved in the past...a much bigger and uglier story.

It is! This needs clarifying urgently - l you are right to smell a rat with that. Can you check the meter or supply number on the bill matches the ones to your elderly relatives house?

We are hoping to verify this ASAP.


Could possibly be, were the meter readings checked by yourselves?

Yes and one a few months earlier from the company themselves so we know it's not out.

When I say no power of attorney is in place, it is and is legally registered but the father is still of relatively sound mind and in fair health. He is obviously confused about certain things and this has been overwhelming for him but I thought in order for the power of attorney to actually kick in, he had to lose the capacity to deal with things himself. Are you saying that just having the POT there she can call the shots regards his affairs?

Yes I've seen the electricity bill, it's in the fathers name but at the address of the family member who's caused the trouble.

We may not have dealt with things too well, partly because no one wants anything to do with the family members who are causing the problems including the father. He is caught between the 2 sides and just appeases them but to our faces he is very scathing of all of them. It's a tough, messed up situation which goes back decades and is the latest in a horrid tale of nastiness.

noisysaver

I meant to say thanks for taking the time to respond!

sassyblue

noisysaver wrote: »

as they have a right to

Are you sure about this? It's the crux of the issue. Maybe I should have mentioned that the father doesn't want them knowing his business because of the way they have behaved in the past and treated others within the family. If your children demanded that you show them your personal affairs, do they have a right to see them? I think not. This is what power of attorney is for and prevents.


No it's not, everything was changed in a will about 4 years ago so that none of the people involved in this disagreement are benefactors from anything in his estate.


As I said above, the father does not want the others seeing his financial affairs.

I misunderstood about the POT bit as your wife already has that in place then no she doesn't have to tell them details of his financial affairs - she has that to act in matters on his behalf, i.e dispute the electricity bill.

Mentioning that the gentleman himself doesn't want them to know anything and that there is a will they aren't included in does change things somewhat, same for including all the info about the house which you now say you haven't an issue with.

As for the electricity bill check that supply point to the ones on the other bills but as l said earlier no tenancy agreement and the gentleman hasn't lived there for so long (as the Care home can confirm) they are just trying it on.

noisysaver

Thanks, things are moving on the meter issue today.

Mojisola

sassyblue wrote: »

Mentioning that the gentleman himself doesn't want them to know anything and that there is a will they aren't included in does change things somewhat, same for including all the info about the house which you now say you haven't an issue with.

To strengthen your wife's position, would he put this in writing for her?

NAR

After sorting electric OP, a simple letter to solicitor from your wife stating than she already has POA and that she has relevant papers, including will, in her possession for safekeeping is all that is required.

noisysaver

After sorting electric OP, a simple letter to solicitor from your wife stating than she already has POA and that she has relevant papers, including will, in her possession for safekeeping is all that is required.

This is what I'm hoping for.

To strengthen your wife's position, would he put this in writing for her?

Yes, we are trying to get him to say this on the telephone to them but it's tough as he appeases them and doesn't want to upset people. Very tricky and we don't want to coerce him or put in in a position.

After looking into the vast amount of paperwork regards POA it seems that she can act on his behalf as soon as it's registered. So that's useful to know, I didn't think it started until he was unable to make decisions for himself.