Difference between delayed and cancelled flight? 261/2004 conspiracy

underthesea

What's the difference?

Article 2 states

"cancellation" means the non-operation of a flight which was previously planned and on which at least one place was reserved.

There isn't a mention of what 'delayed' stands for.

Is there some sort of line? i.e., below x hours it's delayed after x hours is cancelled? Otherwise, it seems cheeky that a flight operator could be 'delayed' by any amount of time and use the wording 'delayed' to get out of compensating customers who loose earnings from not returning home from holiday!

Is there any wording to state if the plane does not take off, it's cancelled? The only thing i found is this:

Flight cancellation and compensation: Rodriguez v Air France, 13 October 2011, ECJ Third Chamber

ECJ held that a flight is regarded as cancelled not only if it does not take off at all but also if the aircraft departs but, for whatever reason, is subsequently forced to return to the airport of departure and is then cancelled and the passengers transferred onto alternative flights.

luci

Normally if a flight departs with the same flight number as the original then it is a delay. If it has a different flight number then it is a cancellation.

underthesea

What's to stop the airline from just sticking the same flight number on?

Take the scenario a flight didn't leave the runway as the pilot was ill and left the next day instead..... it's a cheek to call that a 'delay' when it's clearly cancelled.

Caz3121

Example - If a carrier operates one flight a day to a destination and on Monday it does not operate flight XX123
If on Tuesday it has it's normal flight XX123 and has the Tuesday passengers with all the Monday passengers, then it could be the Monday flight was cancelled
If on the Tuesday it has it's normal XX123 flight with the Tues passengers but also operates another extra flight then this could be the Monday flight that was delayed
Simplistically - If they are schedule to operate 7 flights a week and do (even if not on the correct days/times), then it was a delay. If they operate less than planned then this would mean cancelled.

duchy

Sorry where is the conspiracy mentioned in the title ?
The above explanation is clear-A flight can be delayed for 24 or even 48 hours and still operate -or it can be cancelled and (in say the case of daily flights) passengers rebooked onto the same flight number the following day . So a cancellation.

Is "conspiracy" the new "rip off" ?

underthesea

Thanks caz

duchy - i'm shocked at how 24h or even 48h can be a delay as it's a long time to be stuck in a country and loose out on work, pay!

MarkyMarkD

I don't see how that's shocking. Just because a delay is a long delay, doesn't make it a cancellation.

underthesea

To me, after a certain point it becomes a cancellation. If we think down this line, a delay could be any amount time... would you consider 1 week a 'delay?' My personal line of delay is more than 24h.

You try telling your boss missing 3 days off work the flight was 'delayed' mine said 'delayed, you taking the mick!?'

Centipede100

Caz3121 wrote: »

Simplistically - If they are schedule to operate 7 flights a week and do (even if not on the correct days/times), then it was a delay. If they operate less than planned then this would mean cancelled.

Musioman

Caz has stated the definition above accepted by airlines, legal experts and the courts. You could try searching the ECJ website for precedent case law on 261/2004 definitions: http://curia.europa.eu/juris/recherche.jsf?language=en&text=261/2004

Whether you agree with it is another matter. If you have a problem convincing your boss it was indeed a delay you can write to the airline and ask them for proof of the delay which you would like to present to your insurers (ostensibly) for a possible claim, this you can then show to your boss to calm him down.

The Sturgeon judgement will give you plenty of reading to define the concept of delay v cancellation and indeed may give you the ability to claim for delay compensation later this year: http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=CELEX:62007J0402:EN:HTML

I say later this year because various UK airlines have raised a challenge to this ruling but most informed commentary fully expects this challenge to be overturned and for the original Sturgeon judgement to stand. This means you have the possibility of being able to claim 600 euros compensation per passenger in your party. Sick airline staff are not an "extraordinary circumstance" so this counts in your favour.

Whether you agree with it is another matter. If you have a problem convincing your boss it was indeed a delay you can write to the airline and ask them for proof of the delay which you would like to present to your insurers (ostensibly) for a possible claim, this you can then show to your boss to calm him down.

Flightstats often displays incomplete data, especially for delayed flights so don't concern yourself with that too much.