Amazon 7 x fraudulent charges. natwest can't refund money...

notbritishgas

george1drum wrote: »

Thanks for all the replies!
My account was broken into and 7 items (which turned out to be £28 vouchers) were bought through my account automatically on my card as it is registered.

I only rang them up and chased them after the 7 days they said it would take.

I originally contacted natwest at the end of october when i was first notified of the issue. the only problem is that because they say they didn't receive the documentation they are sort of pushing the blame on so they no longer have to deal with it. as i have the email still that i sent and the reply from natwest saying it had been passed on that should technically floor there issue with me not providing the documentation.

I find it strange that a large company like Amazon do not ask for the 3 digit security code from the back of the card. If they did so that would allow cards to be registered and only enter the 3 digits on a sale.

This would have prevented the OP's problems. So perhaps OP you can ask them why they did/do not ask for the code?

I now remove my card details after every Amazon purchase.

ChiefGrasscutter

pvt wrote: »

Hmmm! Difficult.

I suppose it throws up an interesting question if Amazon are effectively passing your CC details on to one of its partners to use.

This is not how it happens
Amazon act as the entire 'cashier/payment processor' for the transaction. The amazon marketplace trader does nothing and receives no data other than some authorisation to despatch the goods. No card details are passed on to them. Its not unlike buying something on ebay from the payment process aspect.

pvt

Grasscutter,

In which case the OP's issue is with Amazon, and nobody else as far as I can see.

But I do seem to recall when I bought some gear off Amazon through a 3rd party, that the name against the transaction on my CC account was the actual supplier, not Amazon - but that might possibly not have been on their "Market Place" portal thingymajigmabob.

I'm puzzled by your eBay analogy? - eBay never handle money or process payments, that is entirely the responsibility of the buyer and vendor. They can use BACS, cheque, PayPal, payment on collection, or whatever they mutually agree, but eBay never go anywhere near that transaction.

ChiefGrasscutter

Yeah, I see you point re ebay - possibly a bad anaolgy as the extent to which ebay/paypal get involved in transations raises all sorts of issues!

When I've bought from a marketplace seller, indeed the transaction says something like Amazon .co.uk-mktplce. It does not list the end-seller's name and I know to keep my own records to ensure I can account for the transactions properely.

I once was double charged to my credit card from a purchase from amazon marketplace so I went into this is some detail as to exactly who was charging my card , was it Amazon or was it the markeplace trader. The anwer was that it was Amazon on behalf of the trader who themselves did nothing and who were accounting to/fro to Amazon. They had no idea I was double charged and had no access to my card details.
Actually to be fair to Amazon they rapidly admitted they had double charged me (and probably a fair few others!) and refunded me shortly after backdated to the day of the double charge. They also confirmed that the actual marketplace seller had no knowledge of the double charge event.

Plxply

I still think the fraud is Natwest's problem, although using a payment processor you lose the ability to argue over quality of goods it still is fraud which should be different from quality disputes.

The best analogy I can give is, if I use Western Union to wire money to friends a lot around the world, does the bank then lose liability if a transaction is run on my card through Western Union to another country even if I was not involved?

Also Amazon never ask for the CSC code, I believe they were brought in near the late 90's and Amazon was already established by then as a large online retailer. I imagine their merchant agreement hasn't changed since and majority of time anti-fraud techniques are used to bring down the card fees, for example websites that use VbV are charged less to process cards.

RetiredInThailand

Amazon's payment system in relation to marketplace vendors is very similar to PayPal's; they do all the processing and the vendor never knows the payment details of the buyer.

But I dont quite understand how anyone could have bought non-Amazon gift vouchers from a marketplace vendor via Amazon. Perhaps you meant that Amazon gift vouchers were purchased from Amazon and used to buy goods from a marketplace vendor? If so there will be T&Cs relating to the misuse of the vouchers that may well be in your favour.

pvt

Plxply wrote: »

The best analogy I can give is, if I use Western Union to wire money to friends a lot around the world, does the bank then lose liability if a transaction is run on my card through Western Union to another country even if I was not involved?

I believe the answer is yes, if the fraud is because someone hacked into your WesternUnion account and used the details you had previously legitimately given WU to effectively defraud WU. I refer you to my analogy of the book stolen in the packing department in #9.

The loss is yours or WU's, certainly not the bank's if they paid WU who used the details you gave them for the CC.

And you were involved, you gave your CC details to WU.

pvt

RetiredInThailand wrote: »

Amazon's payment system in relation to marketplace vendors is very similar to PayPal's; they do all the processing and the vendor never knows the payment details of the buyer.

Yes, but there is a big difference between someone hacking your PayPal account and paying themselves from it using the credit card details you gave to PayPal, and a situation where someone gets your CC details and opens a PayPal account for themselves to do the theiving. From the bank's perspective, in the first case PayPal used the details you had given them, and in the second case PayPal got the details from the thief.

If so there will be T&Cs relating to the misuse of the vouchers that may well be in your favour.

The OP never bought any vouchers, so how could any Ts&Cs apply to him?

RetiredInThailand

pvt wrote: »

Yes, but there is a big difference between someone hacking your PayPal account and paying themselves from it using the credit card details you gave to PayPal, and a situation where someone gets your CC details and opens a PayPal account for themselves to do the theiving. From the bank's perspective, in the first case PayPal used the details you had given them, and in the second case PayPal got the details from the thief.

But that wasn't the case here, so the comparison with PayPal is valid. Besides which someone could set up the same fraud that you describe with Amazon also.
PayPal and Amazon both handle payments to third-party vendors in the same way.

The OP never bought any vouchers, so how could any Ts&Cs apply to him?

That depends on the T&Cs, some of which will relate to the usage and some may also relate to how they are used with third-party vendors (though it still isnt at all clear how they were bought and how they were used).

pvt

RetiredInThailand wrote: »

That depends on the T&Cs, some of which will relate to the usage and some may also relate to how they are used with third-party vendors (though it still isnt at all clear how they were bought and how they were used).

Ts&Cs relate to a contract. If the OP didn't contract to buy these vouchers then the voucher Ts&Cs are totally irrelevent