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Help - urgent dispute!!
Novala
Posts: 3 Newbie
(PS - posted this in Consumer rights too, but not sure which place is appropriate - mods please merge/remove so in right place!)
Hi, I hope somebody can help with this problem. Rather complicated!
I'm currently a tenant, renting in a terraced house. Just before christmas the fence between ourselves and the house-owner next door was blown down.
Unfortunately this happened 2 days before those neighbours were due to travel abroad for a 2 month trip. The neighbors next door are a nice couple in their mid 60s. I didnt really know them very well but they have always seemed very friendly and amicable.
The owner next door organised the very next day for a company to come out and give a quote for the repair work. This they did and provided the neighbour with a quote for £400 for the repairs. The neighbour spoke to me later that day (1 day before travelling) and asked if we would like to split repair costs (thinking we owned the property). I explained i rent here and that i would have to speak to the letting agent. The neighbour (feeling bad that it may not be sorted for 10 weeks) gave me the quote, and £200 in cash. He provided an email address to contact him on holiday. He said to speak to the estate agents to see if the landlord would pay half, if so to go ahead and there was his half (very nice of him!)
The next day the neighbours left on their trip. I called the estate agent and after a few days, the landlord passed on the message that they were *not* happy to pay for half of the fence. The letting agent told us to 'move the fence onto the neighbours lawn or it would damage the landlord's grass, and then leave it'. A) the fence was HUGE (the posts, still attached to the fence, had broken and there was no way i could move it on my own).
i wasn't going to leave it there for 10 weeks and destroy the neighbours lawn. I managed to *just* move/drag them onto the non grassy area in between both houses.
I figured at that point i would just leave it till the neighbours returned ( I really wasnt bothered about getting it fixed fast, nobody was there and it was still cold + rainy so i wouldnt get much lawn use).
About 2 weeks prior to their return i was contacted by the neighbour (email) to see how things had progressed. I informed him of the refusal of the landlord, and told him not to worry, we would just sort it out when he returned and to enjoy the holiday.
1 week prior to their return, the neighbour contacted me again to say they were happy to go ahead with the full repairs and they would pay it all at the quoted price. They asked if i could call the company and arrange for the company to carry out their quote at the agreed price ( i had this on paper with reference details in the neighbour's name). They said to arrange for any repairs to happen *after* they had returned though so they could sort out all payment etc. I even offered to pay something towards the repairs (a token gesture, i just felt bad), but they flat out refused and said it wouldnt be fair. (still have all these emails backed up)
I called the company, and explained that i was calling regarding the quote they had given to a neighbour (gave his name / address / details / date) and that they had been on holiday since the quote date hence the long delay in getting back to them. I said 'They wanted me to call to confirm that they would like to go ahead with the work, the price and details of which are in the quote you provided' - then skimmed briefly through the details. They said that was fine, they could still do the job at that price. I explained that as i work weekdays, the only day i could arrange it for would be a saturday as i dont know the neighbours availability, but it has to be no earlier than their return date (gave date), as they were paying for the repairs.
They said that they couldn't give any dates. He said 'I'll call you back when i have a better idea of a date, a few days before i can actually do the work, but it may be a fortnight or more before i can do it'.
That was the monday the 12th of this month. I emailed the neighbour telling him of the progress and that i had arranged for the fencer to come out and do the repairs after their return but hadn't gotten a firm date yet. Anyhow.. the neighbours returned on the 21st. I spoke to the neighbour handing him the quote back (along with all the contact details etc) and his cash, explaining i hadnt received any calls yet from the fencer to confirm a date, but he said he likely wouldnt call until a few days before he could come. Explained id arranged for a saturday, but to feel free to call him and arrange a weekday if they are available. The neighbour said thanks, and said he would get it sorted.
Didnt hear anything else. Got home yesterday.. woohoo! fence was repaired! great i thought! The fencer has been out n fixed it. Got home late but thought, ill head round tomorrow and thank the neighbour.
Got a voicemail today from a fencer... 'Hi just calling to say we are ready to come and do the work tomorrow, give me a call back if there are any problems'. What i thought? I figured he'd got mixed up since both myself and the neighbour had dealt with him at some point, or it was an old voicemail that had come through.
Called the fencer.. leading to a very confusing conversation. He had no idea the fence had been repaired. I was slightly confused, saying.. but.. its repaired.. i just thought the neighbour had spoken to you to arrange the work get done. Seems not. The guy is very angry as 'I've just been and loaded the truck up this morning with materials that ive paid for, somebody needs to pay me, what am i supposed to do with them'. I tell the guy ill go knock on the neighbours door and find out whats happened. Sadly they arent in.
Call the guy back to explain ill have to call back tomorrow when i speak to the neighbours.Said there is no point coming to do the work.. its fixed. Asked if he could just reuse the materials (its a BASIC BASIC BASIC set of fence panels and posts.. SERIOUSLY basic.. you see them EVERYWHERE). He claims not, that they are bought for the specific job. I ask if he can return them to the supplier. He claims he can, but he will lose out on £100 (seems bloody steep) on returning the posts and panels.
Made quite a point of standing up for myself here (proud of myself for that!) saying that A) I was arranging the repairs on the neighbours, for their quote, in their name, and made that clear at the time, and feel like im getting dragged into something that shouldn't involve me (should have not got involved in first place!!). As far as i was concerned i'd asked him if he could carry out the job for them, he said yes he could but he'd call back to arrange a date. Which he hadn't done. He made no mention of purchasing materials at that stage (in my mind the job wasnt confirmed till hed called and agreed a date). I said that to him to be met with 'well it was arranged so i bought supplies, how do you think it works?'. I can partly see his point but it would have been wise to call. Surely he could have taken a month to get back to us, in which case we would have cancelled for his tardiness and lack of commital. Its been almost 3 weeks... not exactly quick.
So as it stands he's sending me an invoice for the materials... (he only knows my first name so i dont get how that works). I told him it should go to the neighbour as the work was for him, for a quote given to him in his name, that the neighbor had instructed me to arrange and that payment would be made by the neighbour (I had said this to the fencer at the time even explaining i was a tenant).
Really irked here and not sure where i stand. Very annoyed the neighbour didnt just call the fencer to cancel the job if he wanted someone else. He didnt even come over and ask 'hey im thinking of arranging with someone else, have you heard anything yet, if not ill call and cancel n rearrange'. I guess he just figured the same as me, that the job wasnt a contract until he'd called back with a firm date and it had all been agreed so didnt think he had to bother calling (although this is not exactly polite)!
So i guess my questions are
a) where do i stand on the materials - £100 lost on materials he only bought this morning when returned seems steep for 3 wooden fence posts and 2 panels. And the idea he cant reuse them seems BS. Although he *is* out of pocket. The total job was quoted at £400 including labor. If it was like £40 id just pay to save hassle. But £100? not a chance. Should the invoice (legally) go to me or the neighbour?
b) What do people legally thing regarding the 'contract' here? Firstly i feel any contract is between the fencer and the neighbour and felt i made that clear when arranging. Secondly i find it strange there can be a contract before the guy has even called to give a firm date.. e.g. what if he had never phoned back? The neighbour could hardly sue him for breach of contract.... he'd say there never was one, no date had been given.
c) I was never informed that materials would be purchased at this stage in any way. I can see where he is coming from.... but as i explained to him, i thought that his response meant he basically was already fully booked with work for the next X weeks, and would call back when he had a date he could book in the repairs. It wasn't made clear he would go out and buy the materials before confirming a date to do the work.. it just seems.. odd.
d) I need to speak to the neighbours now (likely will be tomorrow), how do i approach this in a way which can keep the peace???? And what should my stand be.
I genuinely am easy going, and i would be happy to split the £100 50:50 with the neighbour and call it a 'misunderstanding' if pushed ( i have enough other stresses going on right now believe me.. makes this fairly insignificant.. any other day id be in the mood to fight it all the way).
What are the opinions of members here? (Or what are the legal specifics!)
Stressed!
Learned my lesson through.. last time i try and be nice.. just backfires! All i wanted out of this was to avoid friction with the neighbours.. ha. Thats not going to work too well now is it...
Thanks for any advice!!
Hi, I hope somebody can help with this problem. Rather complicated!
I'm currently a tenant, renting in a terraced house. Just before christmas the fence between ourselves and the house-owner next door was blown down.
Unfortunately this happened 2 days before those neighbours were due to travel abroad for a 2 month trip. The neighbors next door are a nice couple in their mid 60s. I didnt really know them very well but they have always seemed very friendly and amicable.
The owner next door organised the very next day for a company to come out and give a quote for the repair work. This they did and provided the neighbour with a quote for £400 for the repairs. The neighbour spoke to me later that day (1 day before travelling) and asked if we would like to split repair costs (thinking we owned the property). I explained i rent here and that i would have to speak to the letting agent. The neighbour (feeling bad that it may not be sorted for 10 weeks) gave me the quote, and £200 in cash. He provided an email address to contact him on holiday. He said to speak to the estate agents to see if the landlord would pay half, if so to go ahead and there was his half (very nice of him!)
The next day the neighbours left on their trip. I called the estate agent and after a few days, the landlord passed on the message that they were *not* happy to pay for half of the fence. The letting agent told us to 'move the fence onto the neighbours lawn or it would damage the landlord's grass, and then leave it'. A) the fence was HUGE (the posts, still attached to the fence, had broken and there was no way i could move it on my own).
i wasn't going to leave it there for 10 weeks and destroy the neighbours lawn. I managed to *just* move/drag them onto the non grassy area in between both houses.I figured at that point i would just leave it till the neighbours returned ( I really wasnt bothered about getting it fixed fast, nobody was there and it was still cold + rainy so i wouldnt get much lawn use).
About 2 weeks prior to their return i was contacted by the neighbour (email) to see how things had progressed. I informed him of the refusal of the landlord, and told him not to worry, we would just sort it out when he returned and to enjoy the holiday.
1 week prior to their return, the neighbour contacted me again to say they were happy to go ahead with the full repairs and they would pay it all at the quoted price. They asked if i could call the company and arrange for the company to carry out their quote at the agreed price ( i had this on paper with reference details in the neighbour's name). They said to arrange for any repairs to happen *after* they had returned though so they could sort out all payment etc. I even offered to pay something towards the repairs (a token gesture, i just felt bad), but they flat out refused and said it wouldnt be fair. (still have all these emails backed up)
I called the company, and explained that i was calling regarding the quote they had given to a neighbour (gave his name / address / details / date) and that they had been on holiday since the quote date hence the long delay in getting back to them. I said 'They wanted me to call to confirm that they would like to go ahead with the work, the price and details of which are in the quote you provided' - then skimmed briefly through the details. They said that was fine, they could still do the job at that price. I explained that as i work weekdays, the only day i could arrange it for would be a saturday as i dont know the neighbours availability, but it has to be no earlier than their return date (gave date), as they were paying for the repairs.
They said that they couldn't give any dates. He said 'I'll call you back when i have a better idea of a date, a few days before i can actually do the work, but it may be a fortnight or more before i can do it'.
That was the monday the 12th of this month. I emailed the neighbour telling him of the progress and that i had arranged for the fencer to come out and do the repairs after their return but hadn't gotten a firm date yet. Anyhow.. the neighbours returned on the 21st. I spoke to the neighbour handing him the quote back (along with all the contact details etc) and his cash, explaining i hadnt received any calls yet from the fencer to confirm a date, but he said he likely wouldnt call until a few days before he could come. Explained id arranged for a saturday, but to feel free to call him and arrange a weekday if they are available. The neighbour said thanks, and said he would get it sorted.
Didnt hear anything else. Got home yesterday.. woohoo! fence was repaired! great i thought! The fencer has been out n fixed it. Got home late but thought, ill head round tomorrow and thank the neighbour.
Got a voicemail today from a fencer... 'Hi just calling to say we are ready to come and do the work tomorrow, give me a call back if there are any problems'. What i thought? I figured he'd got mixed up since both myself and the neighbour had dealt with him at some point, or it was an old voicemail that had come through.
Called the fencer.. leading to a very confusing conversation. He had no idea the fence had been repaired. I was slightly confused, saying.. but.. its repaired.. i just thought the neighbour had spoken to you to arrange the work get done. Seems not. The guy is very angry as 'I've just been and loaded the truck up this morning with materials that ive paid for, somebody needs to pay me, what am i supposed to do with them'. I tell the guy ill go knock on the neighbours door and find out whats happened. Sadly they arent in.
Call the guy back to explain ill have to call back tomorrow when i speak to the neighbours.Said there is no point coming to do the work.. its fixed. Asked if he could just reuse the materials (its a BASIC BASIC BASIC set of fence panels and posts.. SERIOUSLY basic.. you see them EVERYWHERE). He claims not, that they are bought for the specific job. I ask if he can return them to the supplier. He claims he can, but he will lose out on £100 (seems bloody steep) on returning the posts and panels.
Made quite a point of standing up for myself here (proud of myself for that!) saying that A) I was arranging the repairs on the neighbours, for their quote, in their name, and made that clear at the time, and feel like im getting dragged into something that shouldn't involve me (should have not got involved in first place!!).
As far as i was concerned i'd asked him if he could carry out the job for them, he said yes he could but he'd call back to arrange a date. Which he hadn't done. He made no mention of purchasing materials at that stage (in my mind the job wasnt confirmed till hed called and agreed a date). I said that to him to be met with 'well it was arranged so i bought supplies, how do you think it works?'. I can partly see his point but it would have been wise to call. Surely he could have taken a month to get back to us, in which case we would have cancelled for his tardiness and lack of commital. Its been almost 3 weeks... not exactly quick.So as it stands he's sending me an invoice for the materials... (he only knows my first name so i dont get how that works). I told him it should go to the neighbour as the work was for him, for a quote given to him in his name, that the neighbor had instructed me to arrange and that payment would be made by the neighbour (I had said this to the fencer at the time even explaining i was a tenant).
Really irked here and not sure where i stand. Very annoyed the neighbour didnt just call the fencer to cancel the job if he wanted someone else. He didnt even come over and ask 'hey im thinking of arranging with someone else, have you heard anything yet, if not ill call and cancel n rearrange'. I guess he just figured the same as me, that the job wasnt a contract until he'd called back with a firm date and it had all been agreed so didnt think he had to bother calling (although this is not exactly polite)!
So i guess my questions are
a) where do i stand on the materials - £100 lost on materials he only bought this morning when returned seems steep for 3 wooden fence posts and 2 panels. And the idea he cant reuse them seems BS. Although he *is* out of pocket. The total job was quoted at £400 including labor. If it was like £40 id just pay to save hassle. But £100? not a chance. Should the invoice (legally) go to me or the neighbour?
b) What do people legally thing regarding the 'contract' here? Firstly i feel any contract is between the fencer and the neighbour and felt i made that clear when arranging. Secondly i find it strange there can be a contract before the guy has even called to give a firm date.. e.g. what if he had never phoned back? The neighbour could hardly sue him for breach of contract.... he'd say there never was one, no date had been given.
c) I was never informed that materials would be purchased at this stage in any way. I can see where he is coming from.... but as i explained to him, i thought that his response meant he basically was already fully booked with work for the next X weeks, and would call back when he had a date he could book in the repairs. It wasn't made clear he would go out and buy the materials before confirming a date to do the work.. it just seems.. odd.
d) I need to speak to the neighbours now (likely will be tomorrow), how do i approach this in a way which can keep the peace???? And what should my stand be.
I genuinely am easy going, and i would be happy to split the £100 50:50 with the neighbour and call it a 'misunderstanding' if pushed ( i have enough other stresses going on right now believe me.. makes this fairly insignificant.. any other day id be in the mood to fight it all the way).
What are the opinions of members here? (Or what are the legal specifics!)
Stressed!
Learned my lesson through.. last time i try and be nice.. just backfires! All i wanted out of this was to avoid friction with the neighbours.. ha. Thats not going to work too well now is it...
Thanks for any advice!!
0
Comments
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Don't worry! You have no liability to this guy.
I would just say to the neighbours "By the way, I've heard from that guy about the fence now. He said he was going to come round and do it tomorrow but I told him it was fixed. He wasn't very happy about it but I wasn't sure what had happened so told him to speak to you". Then stay out of it going forward!
You've gone above and beyond to sort this out and I certainly would't be agreeing to pay anyone any money (and nor should your neighbours IMO).Wedding 5th September 20150 -
If all else fails and you end up paying the invoice (or the neighbours do) make sure you get the materials from him - they have been paid for after all. then you have the opportunity to sell them on or to take them back to B&Q or wherever.
I suspect that if you tell this to the fencer he will clam up as he probably hasn't bought the materials at all or if he did - he has already used them on another job.
The neighbour may want to offer a token amount for wasting the fencers time. but i agree with the above - it isn't really your problem. I understand that you feel badly about it though.0 -
Pass it straight to the neighbours. You were only contacting him on their behalf and hold no liability. You handed this matter back to the neighbours on their return and it wasn't your issue to tell this guy they'd gone with someone else.
He has no contract with you at all.0 -
If there's nothing bespoke about the materials then it sounds like he's trying it on.
If the work was done as a result of your neighbours getting another firm in, then he may have an argument against them. Regardless, you should pass it onto your neighbours as it is their problem if anyone's. If the trader still insists you're liable, tell him to sue you ... and he'll lose. You'd be crazy to pay him anything voluntarily.
There's a lesson for you in trying to help out with what was someone elses problem!0 -
It's been a while since I rented but I thought one of the advantages of renting was you didn't have to pay for things like this?This is a system account and does not represent a real person. To contact the Forum Team email forumteam@moneysavingexpert.com0
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Agree with the other posters however I am curious as to how the fence got fixed? Did the neighbours just get another quote from somebody who could do the work quicker? Maybe if the other contractor comes back again and wants payment for his costs you can explain he was supposed to call back with a date to commence the work and in the meantime the neighbours found somebody else. Tough luck. No contract formed.0
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OK, so what happened with the neighbours?0
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