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Help.. urgent dispute!!
Novala
Posts: 3 Newbie
Hi, I hope somebody can help with this problem. Rather complicated!
I'm currently a tenant, renting in a terraced house. Just before christmas the fence between ourselves and the house-owner next door was blown down.
Unfortunately this happened 2 days before those neighbours were due to travel abroad for a 2 month trip. The neighbors next door are a nice couple in their mid 60s. I didnt really know them very well but they have always seemed very friendly and amicable.
The owner next door organised the very next day for a company to come out and give a quote for the repair work. This they did and provided the neighbour with a quote for £400 for the repairs. The neighbour spoke to me later that day (1 day before travelling) and asked if we would like to split repair costs (thinking we owned the property). I explained i rent here and that i would have to speak to the letting agent. The neighbour (feeling bad that it may not be sorted for 10 weeks) gave me the quote, and £200 in cash. He provided an email address to contact him on holiday. He said to speak to the estate agents to see if the landlord would pay half, if so to go ahead and there was his half (very nice of him!)
The next day the neighbours left on their trip. I called the estate agent and after a few days, the landlord passed on the message that they were *not* happy to pay for half of the fence. The letting agent told us to 'move the fence onto the neighbours lawn or it would damage the landlord's grass, and then leave it'. A) the fence was HUGE (the posts, still attached to the fence, had broken and there was no way i could move it on my own).
i wasn't going to leave it there for 10 weeks and destroy the neighbours lawn. I managed to *just* move/drag them onto the non grassy area in between both houses.
I figured at that point i would just leave it till the neighbours returned ( I really wasnt bothered about getting it fixed fast, nobody was there and it was still cold + rainy so i wouldnt get much lawn use).
About 2 weeks prior to their return i was contacted by the neighbour (email) to see how things had progressed. I informed him of the refusal of the landlord, and told him not to worry, we would just sort it out when he returned and to enjoy the holiday.
1 week prior to their return, the neighbour contacted me again to say they were happy to go ahead with the full repairs and they would pay it all at the quoted price. They asked if i could call the company and arrange for the company to carry out their quote at the agreed price ( i had this on paper with reference details in the neighbour's name). They said to arrange for any repairs to happen *after* they had returned though so they could sort out all payment etc. I even offered to pay something towards the repairs (a token gesture, i just felt bad), but they flat out refused and said it wouldnt be fair. (still have all these emails backed up)
I called the company, and explained that i was calling regarding the quote they had given to a neighbour (gave his name / address / details / date) and that they had been on holiday since the quote date hence the long delay in getting back to them. I said 'They wanted me to call to confirm that they would like to go ahead with the work, the price and details of which are in the quote you provided' - then skimmed briefly through the details. They said that was fine, they could still do the job at that price. I explained that as i work weekdays, the only day i could arrange it for would be a saturday as i dont know the neighbours availability, but it has to be no earlier than their return date (gave date), as they were paying for the repairs.
They said that they couldn't give any dates. He said 'I'll call you back when i have a better idea of a date, a few days before i can actually do the work, but it may be a fortnight or more before i can do it'.
That was the monday the 12th of this month. I emailed the neighbour telling him of the progress and that i had arranged for the fencer to come out and do the repairs after their return but hadn't gotten a firm date yet. Anyhow.. the neighbours returned on the 21st. I spoke to the neighbour handing him the quote back (along with all the contact details etc) and his cash, explaining i hadnt received any calls yet from the fencer to confirm a date, but he said he likely wouldnt call until a few days before he could come. Explained id arranged for a saturday, but to feel free to call him and arrange a weekday if they are available. The neighbour said thanks, and said he would get it sorted.
Didnt hear anything else. Got home yesterday.. woohoo! fence was repaired! great i thought! The fencer has been out n fixed it. Got home late but thought, ill head round tomorrow and thank the neighbour.
Got a voicemail today from a fencer... 'Hi just calling to say we are ready to come and do the work tomorrow, give me a call back if there are any problems'. What i thought? I figured he'd got mixed up since both myself and the neighbour had dealt with him at some point, or it was an old voicemail that had come through.
Called the fencer.. leading to a very confusing conversation. He had no idea the fence had been repaired. I was slightly confused, saying.. but.. its repaired.. i just thought the neighbour had spoken to you to arrange the work get done. Seems not. The guy is very angry as 'I've just been and loaded the truck up this morning with materials that ive paid for, somebody needs to pay me, what am i supposed to do with them'. I tell the guy ill go knock on the neighbours door and find out whats happened. Sadly they arent in.
Call the guy back to explain ill have to call back tomorrow when i speak to the neighbours.Said there is no point coming to do the work.. its fixed. Asked if he could just reuse the materials (its a BASIC BASIC BASIC set of fence panels and posts.. SERIOUSLY basic.. you see them EVERYWHERE). He claims not, that they are bought for the specific job. I ask if he can return them to the supplier. He claims he can, but he will lose out on £100 (seems bloody steep) on returning the posts and panels.
Made quite a point of standing up for myself here (proud of myself for that!) saying that A) I was arranging the repairs on the neighbours, for their quote, in their name, and made that clear at the time, and feel like im getting dragged into something that shouldn't involve me (should have not got involved in first place!!). As far as i was concerned i'd asked him if he could carry out the job for them, he said yes he could but he'd call back to arrange a date. Which he hadn't done. He made no mention of purchasing materials at that stage (in my mind the job wasnt confirmed till hed called and agreed a date). I said that to him to be met with 'well it was arranged so i bought supplies, how do you think it works?'. I can partly see his point but it would have been wise to call. Surely he could have taken a month to get back to us, in which case we would have cancelled for his tardiness and lack of commital. Its been almost 3 weeks... not exactly quick.
So as it stands he's sending me an invoice for the materials... (he only knows my first name so i dont get how that works). I told him it should go to the neighbour as the work was for him, for a quote given to him in his name, that the neighbor had instructed me to arrange and that payment would be made by the neighbour (I had said this to the fencer at the time even explaining i was a tenant).
Really irked here and not sure where i stand. Very annoyed the neighbour didnt just call the fencer to cancel the job if he wanted someone else. He didnt even come over and ask 'hey im thinking of arranging with someone else, have you heard anything yet, if not ill call and cancel n rearrange'. I guess he just figured the same as me, that the job wasnt a contract until he'd called back with a firm date and it had all been agreed so didnt think he had to bother calling (although this is not exactly polite)!
So i guess my questions are
a) where do i stand on the materials - £100 lost on materials he only bought this morning when returned seems steep for 3 wooden fence posts and 2 panels. And the idea he cant reuse them seems BS. Although he *is* out of pocket. The total job was quoted at £400 including labor. If it was like £40 id just pay to save hassle. But £100? not a chance. Should the invoice (legally) go to me or the neighbour?
b) What do people legally thing regarding the 'contract' here? Firstly i feel any contract is between the fencer and the neighbour and felt i made that clear when arranging. Secondly i find it strange there can be a contract before the guy has even called to give a firm date.. e.g. what if he had never phoned back? The neighbour could hardly sue him for breach of contract.... he'd say there never was one, no date had been given.
c) I was never informed that materials would be purchased at this stage in any way. I can see where he is coming from.... but as i explained to him, i thought that his response meant he basically was already fully booked with work for the next X weeks, and would call back when he had a date he could book in the repairs. It wasn't made clear he would go out and buy the materials before confirming a date to do the work.. it just seems.. odd.
d) I need to speak to the neighbours now (likely will be tomorrow), how do i approach this in a way which can keep the peace???? And what should my stand be.
I genuinely am easy going, and i would be happy to split the £100 50:50 with the neighbour and call it a 'misunderstanding' if pushed ( i have enough other stresses going on right now believe me.. makes this fairly insignificant.. any other day id be in the mood to fight it all the way).
What are the opinions of members here? (Or what are the legal specifics!)
Stressed!
Learned my lesson through.. last time i try and be nice.. just backfires! All i wanted out of this was to avoid friction with the neighbours.. ha. Thats not going to work too well now is it...
Thanks for any advice!!
I'm currently a tenant, renting in a terraced house. Just before christmas the fence between ourselves and the house-owner next door was blown down.
Unfortunately this happened 2 days before those neighbours were due to travel abroad for a 2 month trip. The neighbors next door are a nice couple in their mid 60s. I didnt really know them very well but they have always seemed very friendly and amicable.
The owner next door organised the very next day for a company to come out and give a quote for the repair work. This they did and provided the neighbour with a quote for £400 for the repairs. The neighbour spoke to me later that day (1 day before travelling) and asked if we would like to split repair costs (thinking we owned the property). I explained i rent here and that i would have to speak to the letting agent. The neighbour (feeling bad that it may not be sorted for 10 weeks) gave me the quote, and £200 in cash. He provided an email address to contact him on holiday. He said to speak to the estate agents to see if the landlord would pay half, if so to go ahead and there was his half (very nice of him!)
The next day the neighbours left on their trip. I called the estate agent and after a few days, the landlord passed on the message that they were *not* happy to pay for half of the fence. The letting agent told us to 'move the fence onto the neighbours lawn or it would damage the landlord's grass, and then leave it'. A) the fence was HUGE (the posts, still attached to the fence, had broken and there was no way i could move it on my own).
i wasn't going to leave it there for 10 weeks and destroy the neighbours lawn. I managed to *just* move/drag them onto the non grassy area in between both houses.I figured at that point i would just leave it till the neighbours returned ( I really wasnt bothered about getting it fixed fast, nobody was there and it was still cold + rainy so i wouldnt get much lawn use).
About 2 weeks prior to their return i was contacted by the neighbour (email) to see how things had progressed. I informed him of the refusal of the landlord, and told him not to worry, we would just sort it out when he returned and to enjoy the holiday.
1 week prior to their return, the neighbour contacted me again to say they were happy to go ahead with the full repairs and they would pay it all at the quoted price. They asked if i could call the company and arrange for the company to carry out their quote at the agreed price ( i had this on paper with reference details in the neighbour's name). They said to arrange for any repairs to happen *after* they had returned though so they could sort out all payment etc. I even offered to pay something towards the repairs (a token gesture, i just felt bad), but they flat out refused and said it wouldnt be fair. (still have all these emails backed up)
I called the company, and explained that i was calling regarding the quote they had given to a neighbour (gave his name / address / details / date) and that they had been on holiday since the quote date hence the long delay in getting back to them. I said 'They wanted me to call to confirm that they would like to go ahead with the work, the price and details of which are in the quote you provided' - then skimmed briefly through the details. They said that was fine, they could still do the job at that price. I explained that as i work weekdays, the only day i could arrange it for would be a saturday as i dont know the neighbours availability, but it has to be no earlier than their return date (gave date), as they were paying for the repairs.
They said that they couldn't give any dates. He said 'I'll call you back when i have a better idea of a date, a few days before i can actually do the work, but it may be a fortnight or more before i can do it'.
That was the monday the 12th of this month. I emailed the neighbour telling him of the progress and that i had arranged for the fencer to come out and do the repairs after their return but hadn't gotten a firm date yet. Anyhow.. the neighbours returned on the 21st. I spoke to the neighbour handing him the quote back (along with all the contact details etc) and his cash, explaining i hadnt received any calls yet from the fencer to confirm a date, but he said he likely wouldnt call until a few days before he could come. Explained id arranged for a saturday, but to feel free to call him and arrange a weekday if they are available. The neighbour said thanks, and said he would get it sorted.
Didnt hear anything else. Got home yesterday.. woohoo! fence was repaired! great i thought! The fencer has been out n fixed it. Got home late but thought, ill head round tomorrow and thank the neighbour.
Got a voicemail today from a fencer... 'Hi just calling to say we are ready to come and do the work tomorrow, give me a call back if there are any problems'. What i thought? I figured he'd got mixed up since both myself and the neighbour had dealt with him at some point, or it was an old voicemail that had come through.
Called the fencer.. leading to a very confusing conversation. He had no idea the fence had been repaired. I was slightly confused, saying.. but.. its repaired.. i just thought the neighbour had spoken to you to arrange the work get done. Seems not. The guy is very angry as 'I've just been and loaded the truck up this morning with materials that ive paid for, somebody needs to pay me, what am i supposed to do with them'. I tell the guy ill go knock on the neighbours door and find out whats happened. Sadly they arent in.
Call the guy back to explain ill have to call back tomorrow when i speak to the neighbours.Said there is no point coming to do the work.. its fixed. Asked if he could just reuse the materials (its a BASIC BASIC BASIC set of fence panels and posts.. SERIOUSLY basic.. you see them EVERYWHERE). He claims not, that they are bought for the specific job. I ask if he can return them to the supplier. He claims he can, but he will lose out on £100 (seems bloody steep) on returning the posts and panels.
Made quite a point of standing up for myself here (proud of myself for that!) saying that A) I was arranging the repairs on the neighbours, for their quote, in their name, and made that clear at the time, and feel like im getting dragged into something that shouldn't involve me (should have not got involved in first place!!).
As far as i was concerned i'd asked him if he could carry out the job for them, he said yes he could but he'd call back to arrange a date. Which he hadn't done. He made no mention of purchasing materials at that stage (in my mind the job wasnt confirmed till hed called and agreed a date). I said that to him to be met with 'well it was arranged so i bought supplies, how do you think it works?'. I can partly see his point but it would have been wise to call. Surely he could have taken a month to get back to us, in which case we would have cancelled for his tardiness and lack of commital. Its been almost 3 weeks... not exactly quick.So as it stands he's sending me an invoice for the materials... (he only knows my first name so i dont get how that works). I told him it should go to the neighbour as the work was for him, for a quote given to him in his name, that the neighbor had instructed me to arrange and that payment would be made by the neighbour (I had said this to the fencer at the time even explaining i was a tenant).
Really irked here and not sure where i stand. Very annoyed the neighbour didnt just call the fencer to cancel the job if he wanted someone else. He didnt even come over and ask 'hey im thinking of arranging with someone else, have you heard anything yet, if not ill call and cancel n rearrange'. I guess he just figured the same as me, that the job wasnt a contract until he'd called back with a firm date and it had all been agreed so didnt think he had to bother calling (although this is not exactly polite)!
So i guess my questions are
a) where do i stand on the materials - £100 lost on materials he only bought this morning when returned seems steep for 3 wooden fence posts and 2 panels. And the idea he cant reuse them seems BS. Although he *is* out of pocket. The total job was quoted at £400 including labor. If it was like £40 id just pay to save hassle. But £100? not a chance. Should the invoice (legally) go to me or the neighbour?
b) What do people legally thing regarding the 'contract' here? Firstly i feel any contract is between the fencer and the neighbour and felt i made that clear when arranging. Secondly i find it strange there can be a contract before the guy has even called to give a firm date.. e.g. what if he had never phoned back? The neighbour could hardly sue him for breach of contract.... he'd say there never was one, no date had been given.
c) I was never informed that materials would be purchased at this stage in any way. I can see where he is coming from.... but as i explained to him, i thought that his response meant he basically was already fully booked with work for the next X weeks, and would call back when he had a date he could book in the repairs. It wasn't made clear he would go out and buy the materials before confirming a date to do the work.. it just seems.. odd.
d) I need to speak to the neighbours now (likely will be tomorrow), how do i approach this in a way which can keep the peace???? And what should my stand be.
I genuinely am easy going, and i would be happy to split the £100 50:50 with the neighbour and call it a 'misunderstanding' if pushed ( i have enough other stresses going on right now believe me.. makes this fairly insignificant.. any other day id be in the mood to fight it all the way).
What are the opinions of members here? (Or what are the legal specifics!)
Stressed!
Learned my lesson through.. last time i try and be nice.. just backfires! All i wanted out of this was to avoid friction with the neighbours.. ha. Thats not going to work too well now is it...
Thanks for any advice!!
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Comments
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I'd be telling the builder to sod off, it's not your fault the job has been cancelled. After 3 weeks I'd have gone elsewhere too.0
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well legally that fence belongs to either the landlord of your house or your neighbour and they are fully responsible for its upkeep and repair
shouldnt be a 50/50 thing at all, which may be why the landlord was not willing to contribute, he would be responsible for fence on the other side.
havent time to answer the other questions but very complicated issues
need to speak to your neighbour to work out what they have done
where is there £200 they gave you ?0 -
Stop communicating by phone. If he sends a bill to you, respond - in writing and by recorded delivery while keeping a copy of the letter for your own records - stating that you dispute the bill as there was never a legally binding contract between you.
Thats it.
EDIT: Oh and perhaps add in that you are requesting he does not process any personal information of yours and if he does not comply with this request, you will make a complaint to the ICO as you do not believe he has any valid reason to retain your information that would comply with the Data Protection Act.You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means - Inigo Montoya, The Princess Bride0 -
I'd say the builder is trying it on and if I was your neighbours I would tell him where to go.
They could try being really funny with him and ask him for materials and the invoice to prove the cost. That way he doesn't get the money and keep the materials and he can't put the invoice through his business.
On another point though, never, ever tell any business/company/person that neighbours or yourself are on holiday, out at work all day etc. as it advertising an unoccupied house!
~Laugh and the world laughs with you, weep and you weep alone.~:)
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The OP said she gave it back to neighbours.whitelabel wrote: »well legally that fence belongs to either the landlord of your house or your neighbour and they are fully responsible for its upkeep and repair
shouldnt be a 50/50 thing at all, which may be why the landlord was not willing to contribute, he would be responsible for fence on the other side.
havent time to answer the other questions but very complicated issues
need to speak to your neighbour to work out what they have done
where is there £200 they gave you ?
While I agree only one neighbour owns a fence, as both benefit from it then it's quite common to have an informal arrangement to split costs. If I had nice neighbours I wouldn't hesitate in sharing the cost of their fence if it gave me privacy. ~Laugh and the world laughs with you, weep and you weep alone.~:)
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Never mind your questions for the moment. Who actually repaired the fence and on whose instructions? Once you have the answer to that, the answers to your questions will fall into place. I am assuming that the fencer with the abortive job is the one you contacted and not another fencer? If he is another fencer, then how was he instructed?Hi, we’ve had to remove your signature. If you’re not sure why please read the forum rules or email the forum team if you’re still unsure - MSE ForumTeam0
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Thanks for the advice guys.
Spoke to the neighbour and said the guy had called and wasn't too happy and wanted to speak to him regarding materials he'd purchased.
I solved the confusing 'I spoke to you last week' part of the phone call with the company guy too ( i couldnt remember dates on the spot). Turns out the neighbour HAD called the guy last week chasing up a date which makes way more sense. The guy said he would (again...) 'call him back by the end of the week with a date it'd likely be the weekend (24th)'. Once again the guy didnt call the neighbour back either and after that, the neighbour got sick of waiting called around, got a quote £100 cheaper, and could come the next day. They did, and that was history.
So thank god ( i feel WAY less stressed now) that the neighbour *did* speak to him last week to continue arrangements on his own. At that moment any claim of involvement i had was officially out the window.
When i suggested the guy wanted to talk to the neighbour, and suggested he give him a call, the neighbour just kind of paused and said 'no.. no.. i dont think i will'. He did kind of clarify later as ' he has my number he can call me if he likes' and 'Just put the phone down on him dont communicate with him any more, let him send as many invoices as he likes, he messed around its his own fault'. Did apologise for getting me involved which was nice , but a 'sorry ill call him now n tell him to deal with me' could have been great Still v amicable though.
Totally don't need this right now at all, my partner of 6 years is moving out this weekend after our recent break up, life is stressfull enough without stupid fences!! Far more important. lol. Appreciate all the advice guys.
I had said id call the guy tomorrow.. should i just not bother? I could maybe call one last time just to say theres been a mixup, you spoke to the neighbour last week about it to confirm arrangements, nothing to do with me. He should have his number + address, feel free to contact him. Im thinking there was just confusion who he'd called to be honest judging by his 'Which one are you then, Bob or Reg (not using real names lol) is it house number 1 or 2' when discussing a possible invoice. Good luck with that mate.0 -
OP, you have no obligation to this guy, he had no authority to purchase these materials without authorisation from the person that would be paying for them. He was aware of why you were calling and he failed to contact you as agreed.
He is trying it on, if he is a fencer then he can easily reuse the materials or return them. If he contacts you again tell him to contact your neighbours and not you.
As has been said, if you need to reply to him for anything (and you do not) then do it in writing, be brief and to the point, do not say too much.
Enjoy the new fence.
Just remember that you cannot:
Paint it, hang anything on it, lean anything on or attach anything to it.
(It is not your to do these things to). 0 -
OK, straight forward now.Tell the fencer it is between him and the neighbour and as you understand it, neighbour kicked him into touch because he did not get back with a date.I solved the confusing 'I spoke to you last week' part of the phone call with the company guy too ( i couldnt remember dates on the spot). Turns out the neighbour HAD called the guy last week chasing up a date which makes way more sense. The guy said he would (again...) 'call him back by the end of the week with a date it'd likely be the weekend (24th)'. Once again the guy didnt call the neighbour back either and after that, the neighbour got sick of waiting called around, got a quote £100 cheaper, and could come the next day. They did, and that was history.Hi, we’ve had to remove your signature. If you’re not sure why please read the forum rules or email the forum team if you’re still unsure - MSE ForumTeam0 -
I had said id call the guy tomorrow.. should i just not bother? I could maybe call one last time just to say theres been a mixup, you spoke to the neighbour last week about it to confirm arrangements, nothing to do with me. He should have his number + address, feel free to contact him. Im thinking there was just confusion who he'd called to be honest judging by his 'Which one are you then, Bob or Reg (not using real names lol) is it house number 1 or 2' when discussing a possible invoice. Good luck with that mate.
I wouldn't bother personally. I'd wait and see if he contacts you. If he calls, repeat you do not now, nor have you ever have a contract with him and not to call again. If you don't think he'll listen....you could try the "after seeking advice on this situation, I have been informed to tell you............". He doesn't need to know the source of your info
Then wait and see if he sends an invoice and follow the advice given above.
To put your mind more at ease.....if he wants to try and get money off you, he would have to go through small claims. In order to be successful in his small claims, he would need to prove that there was a legally binding contract between you and him, that he had tried to mitigate his losses and that his actions had been reasonable.
I don't believe he could do any of these things. Calling at last minute to say he was coming to do the fence is something I would expect if i had asked a friend to do it, not a business!
It was at THAT point that a contract would have been formed. However, you informed him it had been done, ergo......no contract. Basically a contract exists when both parties become bound by the terms of that contract.
Given he was "i'll get back to you"......he obviously wasn't bound. It would be an unfair contract term to bind YOU (or your neighbours) to a contract when he is not bound himself. Any unfair term is legally unenforceable.
So relax, enjoy the nice weather while we have it and focus your energy on more important things You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means - Inigo Montoya, The Princess Bride0
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