Power of attorney

Biggles

prudryden wrote:

WRONG!!!!!

Eh? I'm sorry, I've been there, done it. Not sure exactly which bit you think is wrong (as before, you aren't very clear) but read the Public Guardianship website if there's anything you don't understand
http://www.guardianship.gov.uk/theservice/enduringpower.htm

prudryden

Here is the exact wording on a Power of Attorney to do a property transaction:

On this _____ day of ____, 20__, before me personally appeared_____,to me known to be the person (persons) described in and who executed the foregoing instrument, and acknowledged that such person (or person) executed the same as such person (or persons) free act and deed.

_______________________
Commissioner of Oaths
Printed Name________________

Commission expires
_______________

prudryden

The OP was not talking about court apponted guardianship. The OP was talking about moving money from someone's account into another account. No financial institution would take that risk without knowing that the authorizing document has been certified as to identity of all signatories to include witnesses and that it has been properly signed and witnessed by a creditable person (generally a law firm, bank manager etc.) For all they know, the document could be a total fabrication.

As stated before, most financial institutions will have their own POA's for the customer and the proposed attorney to sign. The bank manager may have the authority to do the certification himself, as I do in my financial business.

prudryden

Please refer to the Money Laundering Regulations.
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/SI/si2003/20033075.htm

Biggles

prudryden wrote:

The OP was not talking about court apponted guardianship. The OP was talking about moving money from someone's account into another account. No financial institution would take that risk without knowing that the authorizing document has been certified as to identity of all signatories to include witnesses and that it has been properly signed and witnessed by a creditable person (generally a law firm, bank manager etc.) For all they know, the document could be a total fabrication

No-one has mentioned court-appointed guardianship, the Public Guardianship Office advises on, and provides the official forms for, Enduring Power of Attorney.

The actual wording on the form is http://www.guardianship.gov.uk/downloads/Make_An_EPA.Web.pdf
Signed by me as a deed ___ and delivered on ____ in the presence of ____
Full name of witness _____ Address of witness ____
That's it. It is then a legal document, the witness is not required to identify the donor or the attorney(ies), just, as is normal with witnesses, to say that they have seen the persons sign the document in front of them.

I have used mine to deal with High Street banks, Benefits Agency and various other reputable authorities. All accept the document, or a certified copy of it if I have to post it, at face value. I am presently using it to sell my mother's house and my solicitor also accepts it absolutely and has made me certified copies for sending to other institutions (without asking for ID of anyone involved!). My solicitor understands that this is the normal way of dealing with EPAs.

It would not be feasible for various financial institutions to each have their own EPAs, and none I have dealt with have; if your own firm has its own internal rules, that's a matter for it.

prudryden

Biggles wrote:

No-one has mentioned court-appointed guardianship, the Public Guardianship Office advises on, and provides the official forms for, Enduring Power of Attorney.

The actual wording on the form is http://www.guardianship.gov.uk/downloads/Make_An_EPA.Web.pdf
Signed by me as a deed ___ and delivered on ____ in the presence of ____
Full name of witness _____ Address of witness ____
That's it. It is then a legal document, the witness is not required to identify the donor or the attorney(ies), just, as is normal with witnesses, to say that they have seen the persons sign the document in front of them.

I have used mine to deal with High Street banks, Benefits Agency and various other reputable authorities. All accept the document, or a certified copy of it if I have to post it, at face value. I am presently using it to sell my mother's house and my solicitor also accepts it absolutely and has made me certified copies for sending to other institutions (without asking for ID of anyone involved!). My solicitor understands that this is the normal way of dealing with EPAs.

It would not be feasible for various financial institutions to each have their own EPAs, and none I have dealt with have; if your own firm has its own internal rules, that's a matter for it.

So who guarantees that the signatures are not forged and that the person giving the POA is mentally capable. Certainly not some witness living below the Embankment.

prudryden

So you are saying that you can walk into my office and by given me a piece of paper signed by my customer, giving someone I don't know POA, and witnessed by someone, who could be anyone off the street, I will immediately transfer £100,000 or whatever from my customer's account to a third party account.

I can tell you what will happen. First of all, my compliance officer will refuse to endorse the transfer, it will raise a red flag and by law the compliance officer will have to report it as potential money laundering.

If it did slip through the net and it turns out to be a fraud. Not only would I lose my job, I could possibly be indicted for aiding and abeting in the transfer.

Biggles

It occurs to me, Pru, that you may be based in Scotland, where I believe a Power of Attorney does indeed have to be certified by a solicitor or a doctor to be valid.

Assuming loulou41 is in England, his/her queries about the cost (which was the original question) are as follows:-

In England, it just needs the signatures to be witnessed. It is then a valid document. No cost.

For copies to be accepted by most bodies, they may need to be 'certified as true copies' by a solicitor (though I think a bank manager etc 'will do'). From £0 to £5 or so. Though if you take it in person, you don't need it certifying at all. That should be the end of it.

To be actually used, of course, a financial institution etc may well require evidence of identity of the user, but that's no different to me walking in to open an account for myself, they will need you to satisfy them as to who you are. But, then again, no cost.

This has not proved to be a problem in practice when dealing with relatively large amounts of money nor property.

prudryden

No, I'm not in Scotland.

It may be a valid document as you say, I never said that it wasn't. But I guarantee you, under the ever evolving Money Laundering Regulations, it would not be accepted , if the purpose was to move money from one account to a Third Party account, by a reputable financial institution. The penalties are now very severe, to include heavy fines and closing down of the institution. This applies to all financial institutions, to include Barclays or RBS.

A local branch who knows the parties involved would probably accept it. My intention however was to suggest that it should be certified by someone who the institution would recognize as an authorized person. If it is certified by a law firm, that would be acceptable to most firms. I don't mean certified as to a true copy, I mean certify that the person giving the POA and the person receiving the POA i.e. the agent or attorney-in-fact are who they say they are and that their signatures have been witnessed.

You never did answer my question on how a firm would know that a document has not been fabricated with false signatures and that a crime is not taking place. That is why the obligation has been placed on all financial firms to identify the people involved.

Biggles

You mention the purpose, this has never been an issue; the only purpose is to allow me control over Mum's affairs. I can assure you that institutions from LTSB, to NS&I, to DWP have indeed accepted the EPA. Most just require seeing the document or, if done by post, a certified copy accompanied by a covering letter. I've never had a single query. Once I am accepted, I can give any instructions that the donor would have done; this will obviously include moving money to third parties, or there would be no point (I have to pay Mum's bills, naturally). The 'original' EPA is not certified in any way, in fact there is no place on the form to do that.

Firms ask for whatever ID they need from me, which isn't usually much, I have to say. I daresay they all know Mum's signature and can see that she has signed the EPA, though her signature has deteriorated over recent years and thus will have changed somewhat from what they have on record. Obviously, I don't know what background checks they may carry out (perhaps I'm being vetted as we speak!), but the main thing from my point of view is that it was easy and pretty hassle-free and cost us nothing to put in place.