Should Sunday trading restrictions be lifted?

JimmyTheWig

elvis86 wrote: »

I'd rather like to choose when I shop and when I spend my "family time", rather than being told that this has to be on a Sunday. If you want to spend time with your family on Sunday then find a job that allows for that and do it. It's your choice, it doesn't require legislation forcing everyone to live as you want to.

But with everyone potentially working 5 random days throughout the week, the chances of getting everyone together on any one day would be small.

It's a joke that in a recession, we've stupid laws like this, based on religious clap-trap, preventing businesses from opening and trading.

There would be no more money around if shops opened all day on a Sunday, people would just spend a little less the rest of the week.

wizzardmr42

MSE_Martin wrote: »

My personal view is that Sunday trading should be the same, but we should have protected employment rights for those practising members of faiths that they should not be disenfrachised or suffer any work or promotion deterioration from not working on their holy days.

As much as I agree with your opinion overall (and indeed posted pretty much the same above), I have to point out that we already do have employment legislation against discrimination on that sort of basis and although a lot of employers are quite good about it, I've heard a lot of other religious Jews complain that they have applied for a number of jobs and potential employers seem interested until they explain that in winter they have to leave early on Friday afternoons, but are happy to make the time up on other days. They say that often what happens is that another reason is given for why they aren't suitable so as to get around the legislation against discrimination.

wizzardmr42

VfM4meplse wrote: »

Jesus lived amongst Jews 2000 years ago, it was all about business then too but the Sabbath was still reserved.

On the other hand, I don't know of any Mr Patels that own their own newsagents - or any other Hindu for that matter - that would think twice about working 7 days a week, including Diwali.

The idea of a Sabbath is from the Bible (and as far as I'm concerned only applies to Jews). I don't know that much about Hindus, but I don't think that the Bible is part of their religion, so I don't see any reason why it should apply to them?

I'm also not clear what Christians actually aren't allowed to do on a Sunday. As an Orthodox Jew, there are 39 categories of things that I'm not allowed to do from sunset on Friday until nightfall on Saturday in order to protect it as a special time. We're not even allowed to move items that aren't needed for the Sabbath day (eg. a pen, hammer, etc). We can't switch electrical circuits on and off (we use time switches for lights, heating and heating food), we don't drive cars, cook, write, shop, do home improvements, talk about work - we're actually supposed to avoid thinking about work if we can (although any risk of threat to life overrides all these rules - we'd be able). It might sound pretty restrictive to you, but it is so relaxing to have a day off every week where you know you aren't going to be answering the phone, worrying about work, bills etc. Getting back to the point, I've never understood what exactly Christians mean by Sunday being a "day of rest"?

Besides that, the idea of imposing your own religious ideas on other people is a very Christian thing anyway. As a Jew, I believe my religion only applies to Jews and we are actually supposed to discourage people from converting to Judaism. It does wind me up how much Christianity tries to impose itself on people.

elvis86

JimmyTheWig wrote: »

But with everyone potentially working 5 random days throughout the week, the chances of getting everyone together on any one day would be small.

Other than ensuring that people are safe at work, paid a fair wage, treated fairly and given adequate time off, I don't believe that the state should be inteferring like this. It's unneccessary.

It's down to the individual. I wouldn't seek out a job that required me to work weekends, but if I lost my job and had no alternative then I might have to. It's not for the state to legislate as to when people have "family time".

JimmyTheWig wrote: »

There would be no more money around if shops opened all day on a Sunday, people would just spend a little less the rest of the week.

I get the logic, but if it didn't make good business sense then surely nobody would have begun trading on a Sunday in the first place?

Mobile phones barely existed 20 years ago, now look at how much money they generate? Apple is the richest company in the world!

In Manchester we've had European Christmas Markets each year for the past 13 years or so. These are now thought to be worth £50million annually to the city's economy. You could argue that this money "would have been spent somewhere else before", but it's still a worthwhile endeavour!

stevemcol

It worries me when legislators are guided by religion which is essentially invisible magic with no basis in fact.

JimmyTheWig

elvis86 wrote: »

I get the logic, but if it didn't make good business sense then surely nobody would have begun trading on a Sunday in the first place?

Mobile phones barely existed 20 years ago, now look at how much money they generate? Apple is the richest company in the world!

In Manchester we've had European Christmas Markets each year for the past 13 years or so. These are now thought to be worth £50million annually to the city's economy. You could argue that this money "would have been spent somewhere else before", but it's still a worthwhile endeavour!

Because what is good for one isn't necessarily good for the whole, and vice-versa.

E.g. No-one opens on a Sunday (not something I'm suggesting, btw) and everyone gets their "fair share" (whatever that means) of trade.
Everyone opens on a Sunday and everyone gets their fair share of trade.
Tesco open on a Sunday but Asda don't. Tesco get more than their fair share of trade at the expense of Asda.
So it makes sense for Tesco to open on a Sunday. And it makes sense for Asda to open on a Sunday. And they're back to where they started if neither opened on a Sunday.

Equally, a Christmas market in Manchester brings in money at the expense of, maybe, Liverpool and Stockport town centres.

wizzardmr42

stevemcol wrote: »

It worries me when legislators are guided by religion which is essentially invisible magic with no basis in fact.

Depends on your perspective really. I'm pretty sure that the vast majority of secular law can be traced back to the Bible and many people would argue that without religion, there is no objective basis for morality.

Equally, as much as there is definitely no straightforward proof of G-d's existence, belief in G-d is not necessarily irrational. Personally I think that any definition of G-d which can be disproved is not a good definition. To describe religion as "magic" is certainly not something I'd agree with - magic implies tapping in to some sort of limited supernatural force, whereas belief in a true omnipotent G-d means believing in a being which is in complete control of and created the matter of and the physical rules of the Universe(s) at every level from the subatomic level of quantum interaction all the way up to entire galaxies (and further in both directions). I personally don't believe that any lesser definition than that is rational.

wizzardmr42

elvis86 wrote: »

I get the logic, but if it didn't make good business sense then surely nobody would have begun trading on a Sunday in the first place?

It may make good business sense to trade for limited hours on a Sunday but not for more than that. eg. staying open for an extra hour on a Sunday may cost more in staff pay than would be gained in profit on additional sales. That's more of a statistical question really.

custardy

wizzardmr42 wrote: »

It may make good business sense to trade for limited hours on a Sunday but not for more than that. eg. staying open for an extra hour on a Sunday may cost more in staff pay than would be gained in profit on additional sales. That's more of a statistical question really.

I think the Scottish stores answer that.

stevemcol

wizzardmr42
I respect your views. In my experience, arguments based on the rights and wrongs of religion rarely end in agreement so it's expedient to agree to differ.