Meter readings for Economy 7

Terrylw1

grahamc2003 wrote: »

I suspect your contract with your suppliers will say something like 'the 7 hours of cheap rate will be supplied between the hours of 22:30 and 08:30 gmt (similar to mine).

That range covers for all distribution company's times - and they are the people who control when you get the cheap rate, not your supplier, who probably don't know or care.

If you have an old mechanical timer your times may be way out - simply ask them to put in an rts meter (where the switching is done by radio signals) which they'll probably do for free. Atm, mine always comes on at 00:30 and goes off at 07:30, but sometimes it also comes on for several minutes (and sometimes 30 minutes) between 00:00 and 00:30. When it does, I expect I lose those minutes by getting the same number of minutes at peak rate during the 00:30 to 07:30 period, but haven't confirmed that - short of recording the meter all night I don't see how I can find out.

So the washing machine set for 02:00 and running for a couple of hours possible has some minutes at peak rate (which seems to be back to your original complaint!). According to the supply contract I signed (and I expect yours is the same or similar), they can turn your cheap rate on anf off as often as they want between 22:30 and 08:30 gmt as long as they supply 7 hours cheap rate (note however that all heaters on e7 circuits will always be on in cheap times, and never in peak times).

Distribution companies only send a nightly signal for radio teleswitch meters. If the meter is time switch, the values for the switching times are all held in common domain on Elexon's website. To be compliant, the meter operators software has to use this data.

Then we have another issue, there are many types of e7 across the country. They differ by region in inn many regions there are multiple types including split differentials which mean it has 2 blocks.

There is a common misconception about switching times, but its hard to access the data.

The supplier can trace this day as they can see a data item called SSC and this maps to the strict timings of a time switch meter. If its not set that way, its slipped and the supplier will be happy to change it. If its radio teleswitch, it can have a 15 minute less/more factor due to the signal process and its not unusual for some meters to be sent incorrect hours that are either more or less. So, the distributor knows their agreed times but won't mention these service failures. Also, the distributor is within their rights to push you back to the supplier as we are not their cusyomers and any increase in work to them for this would mean they would take steps against it.

Make your supplier work for their money!

Also, kick the regulators not not ensuring access to this information. Suppliers themselves have to work hard to get at it and I'm willing to put a lot of money on the fact they dont understand the constant under/over triggering that occurs.

Terrylw1

sacsquacco wrote: »

depends on which type of electric meter you ve got. if its an older meter with low and normal readings showing it will have a mechancall timer controling the switchover times.If its digital it will have an accurate digital clock doing the switchover.Yes, call Npowers cust services about your timers odd times.they will contact the distribuion people on your behalf.You could buy a cheap timer for about £5 to start your washer for what time you want

If its a timeswitcu, they can resolve it over the phone with the customer since the times are strict and best is not an issue on timeswitch a its not possible yo even do it Elexon's market domain. Meters are coming along that will do it though but if they contradict market domain, thy ain't acting in a compliant manner as expected.

If its a radioteleswitch, bst switching is common in some areas but they don't do it in the west midlands to my knowledge. The supplier can call the distributor but there is a very slim chance call centre staff/managers will even know about the issues with these timings. Its more likely they will refer to some sort of spreadsheet that will be old or incorrect. The customer will have to really push beyond that!

Premier_2

lordra wrote: »

...
@Premier: I'm in the West midlands, in the Worcestershire area. I followed your link, but can't find my area listed. I'm probably missing something; can I ask you to kindly spoon-feed me please? Thank you! :rotfl:...

Can you not see MEB? (5th in list)

If not, what areas can you see?

nPower

Hi lordra,

I'm sorry there's some confusion around the time tht you low rate kicks in.

Can you send your details to [EMAIL="forumresponse@npower.com"]forumresponse@npower.com[/EMAIL] and I'll take a look at this for you and see what we can do.

Many thanks,

Adam

jalexa

grahamc2003 wrote: »

I suspect your contract with your suppliers will say something like 'the 7 hours of cheap rate will be supplied between the hours of 22:30 and 08:30 gmt (similar to mine).

According to the supply contract I signed (and I expect yours is the same or similar), they can turn your cheap rate on anf off as often as they want between 22:30 and 08:30 gmt as long as they supply 7 hours cheap rate (note however that all heaters on e7 circuits will always be on in cheap times, and never in peak times).

That's interesting and I don't dispute a literal interpretation of what you say. The NPower website (a supplier potentially embracing all distribution regions) says this... "these vary between different areas, but the off-peak period will be a 7 hour period falling somewhere between the hours of 10pm and 8.30am".

I think that has a very specific literal interpretation.

grahamc2003

jalexa wrote: »

That's interesting and I don't dispute a literal interpretation of what you say. The NPower website (a supplier potentially embracing all distribution regions) says this... "these vary between different areas, but the off-peak period will be a 7 hour period falling somewhere between the hours of 10pm and 8.30am".

I think that has a very specific literal interpretation.

Is the interpretation of that that the 7 hours are contiguous?

I hope it's the case that I get a cheap rate for the full 7 hours between 00:30 and 07:30 - but where does that leave the other several minutes (varying between 0 and 30) between 00:00 and 00:30? i.e. if the 7 hours are contiguous, then I get more than 7 hours cheap rate, which is at odds with the 'the off peak period will be a 7 hour period...'. So in my case, my e7 hours do not agree literally with the extract you quoted from Npower.

I must say, I've always assumed that the varying times between 00:00 and 00:30 was probably something to do with the grid managing demand in order to get the average frequency to 50Hz over the day, as they are obliged to do.

On another point someone mentioned - (one of) my cheap rate always kicks in at precisely 00:30 atm - that has been checked by a separate radio controlled clock to the second, and the same for the 07:30 switch.

I'm thinking of setting up a camera to record the led which lights at cheap rate just to see if I lose any minutes between 00:30 and 07:30 for those (variabe number of minutes) I've had during the 00:00 and 00:30 period. Nevertheless, I'd like to see what the npower rep has to say about my e7 times (which of course would be the same were I an npower customer).

jalexa

grahamc2003 wrote: »

Is the interpretation of that that the 7 hours are contiguous?

It is my interpretation that that follows from the use of the word "period" (singular) twice.

Of course there is no saying that the NPower website authors understand the tariff.:D

Terrylw1

In terms of radioteleswitch graham, you won't find a single supplier or distribution party who fully understands how your timeswitch works, its an industry blackhole. Its not monitored by suppliers who "assume" everything is OK but they are really not understanding it.

For instance, there is a tariff called Redring boiler in on region. This is quoted as has been seen in other threads as 18 hour off peak by suppliers. However, if you spend time analysing the switching pattern over a year you will see it really only comes on for 17.5 hours. I wonder how long this has been going on, was it ever right or have distributors cut it without supplier authorisation?

Another issue seen is that 15 min, 30 or at worst an hour can be added causing heating to be on longer or be removed.

These 15 mins relay issues are due to the network side, demand for instance. They can even switch over, switch back to day for a few minutes or more an above and back again. This can be random, happening once a year or more.

Also, suppliers are stuck with understanding them. At least with a time switch meter you can know the strict times and if its out, you can get an engineer out to it. If its a teleswitch, who would sort it for you when its an industry issue for all parties...

The distributor knows the expected pattern but they are switched in bulk by a code called SSC in the region. So, one error on switching will affect all. They then report the switching times to suppliers everyday via a data flow. I doubt suppliers monitor this as they are relying on smart coming in.

In terms of smart, its not even guaranteed some of the more complex meters will even be supported and such tariffs may get scrapped by ofgem but that's unclear. Currently from about 10 months ago the industry had to set up a forum to discuss the fact the licence runs out for these meters before smart will come in.

Some e7 meters switch over more around 10pm, i can't remember exactly but these are the split e7 types which switch over earlier for 1.5 hours, then the remaining 5.5 hours comes on around 1 or 2am...again, not got the times to hand yo give the exacts.

utility_csa

Terrylw1 wrote: »

In terms of radioteleswitch graham, you won't find a single supplier or distribution party who fully understands how your timeswitch works, its an industry blackhole. Its not monitored by suppliers who "assume" everything is OK but they are really not understanding it.

For instance, there is a tariff called Redring boiler in on region. This is quoted as has been seen in other threads as 18 hour off peak by suppliers. However, if you spend time analysing the switching pattern over a year you will see it really only comes on for 17.5 hours. I wonder how long this has been going on, was it ever right or have distributors cut it without supplier authorisation?

Another issue seen is that 15 min, 30 or at worst an hour can be added causing heating to be on longer or be removed.

These 15 mins relay issues are due to the network side, demand for instance. They can even switch over, switch back to day for a few minutes or more an above and back again. This can be random, happening once a year or more.

Also, suppliers are stuck with understanding them. At least with a time switch meter you can know the strict times and if its out, you can get an engineer out to it. If its a teleswitch, who would sort it for you when its an industry issue for all parties...

The distributor knows the expected pattern but they are switched in bulk by a code called SSC in the region. So, one error on switching will affect all. They then report the switching times to suppliers everyday via a data flow. I doubt suppliers monitor this as they are relying on smart coming in.

In terms of smart, its not even guaranteed some of the more complex meters will even be supported and such tariffs may get scrapped by ofgem but that's unclear. Currently from about 10 months ago the industry had to set up a forum to discuss the fact the licence runs out for these meters before smart will come in.

Some e7 meters switch over more around 10pm, i can't remember exactly but these are the split e7 types which switch over earlier for 1.5 hours, then the remaining 5.5 hours comes on around 1 or 2am...again, not got the times to hand yo give the exacts.

18hr op is supported by our smart meters. i don't know any that we have installed on the tariff though.

split e7 is a weird one, a fair amount of sites seem to have it though.

lordra

Thank you everyone for all the feed back. I feel that, given all the discussion this has prompted, this is a very intense topic of debate.Which is a good thing! Maybe Martin needs to look into this.:money:

However, given the timings on the nPower site, I will start monitoring my meter from 2330 to 0300hrs. I will take pictures every 15 minutes with a time stamp on them and post it back here. Via imageshack. I seem to have a radio teleswitch next to my meter.
This gives me the data I will need when I contact Adam from nPower.

Another thing was, my contract says that my tariff is:
1. Upto and including 728 kWh pa: 25.14p
2. Over 728 kWh pa: 17.52p
3. Night rate : 4.97p

Now:
Q1. Does the cheaper rate of 17.52p apply ONLY to the 'normal' readings or the sum of both, the 'low' and the 'normal' as well?

Q2. Is one unit of kWh equal to one number change on my meter? eg., if my meter, at 1200hrs, reads 500 and then at 0000hrs reads 505, does that mean I've used 5kWh?

Q3. So then, can I just multiply 5 into £0.2514p ?

Thank you everyone for all the help and feedback! Much appreciated. This is definitely a grey area and I will get in touch with my supplier and post back here. :T