Pulling out of extension-what's fair?

bylromarha

We started getting an extension built, but the costs are spiraling now due to a tree in the next door neighbours garden. So we've decided to pull out before it gets silly.

We think the builder should have forseen this tree as you can't miss it. Any experienced builder should have known it would cause problems. a quick google shows that it's a known issue when building. Not being builders we didn't know anything about it.

We currently have foundations dug and nothing else. 2 days work have happened so far for 2 guys...hire of digger + mud remover. Builder has been to site a few times to see what's happening. Structiral engineer came to look at the site to assess.

We are being charged over £4000 if we pull out now. Have rung and he's putting a detail of the costs in writing to us.

We haven't yet paid a penny.

Am tempted to not pay and let him take us to small claims.

Basically...how can these costs be fair? Any advice?

Doozergirl

Erm, well I'm just ahead of you as I'm building an extension and we are officially out of the ground as of Wednesday. Not without it's problems either, we've spent nearly £1000 on a structural engineer and the solution to the problem of a huge 11m well under the new living room!

Is it the thing about trees being within 4m of an extension needing deeper foundations? I admit we also have a HUGE yew tree which was brought up in conversation before we started but we are just far away enough. What did your structural engineer say? Is it completely iredeemable?

For me, the cost for one man for two days is £300, Digger and man for two days £380, Grab loader £120 per load? So that would be £800. If you have a builder overseeing it, he needs a nice fat cut too, I have no idea what though! I suppose somewhere in the region of £1000 would be more of a fair price if, indeed, the builder isn't at fault. Oh, have they paid Building Control too; did you have building regs drawings done by an architect? Was it the officer that brought the issue up? Our building regs were over £600 but it is a whopper of an extension.

Me being me, I'd carry on regardless and stick my fingers in my ears when people tell me how much stuff costs If you didn't employ an architect to do the drawings for building regs, I have no idea where the blame lies.

baldelectrician

It's a hard one.

It depends on who did the plans and project managed.

If the builder quoted on your plans and you project managed it's mainly your fault for the cancellation.

If he quoted on your drawings and he is project managing it is reasonable to assume it is partially his fault.

There are 2 schools of thought.
Did you go for the cheapest builder coz he gave the best price?
Did any other builders mention / forsee problems with the tree?

The cheapest quote isn't always the best.

It also depends how comitted the builder is. He probably has labour to pay for the rest of the week as you have cancelled at short notice.

If the shoe was on the other foot- he had cancelled at short notice you would probably be on here ranting and raving.

I would suggest a compromise- go ahead with the extension as far as getting it built and wind and water tight. Then save up enough to finish it completely.

Tom_Jones

You have to pay the first stage payment, regardless of the fact you cancelled the contract, £4k seems fair, and it's YOUR responsibility to forsee problems like the tree, not the builders

And sorry, but to say your tempted not to pay is just appalling IMHO, the builder has to pay his employees, hire of the digger, the fact that he has to find alternative work for his men etc.

Bossyboots

Tom_Jones wrote:

and it's YOUR responsibility to forsee problems like the tree, not the builders

I can't agree with that. When you employ professionals, you expect them to identify the pitfalls in the project. The first thing our builder did was check for drain locations, trees and any other obviously identifiable potential problems. Why would a householder know that a tree in location x would be a problem? That is expertise you are paying for.

baldelectrician

Bossyboots wrote:

I can't agree with that. When you employee professionals, you expect them to identify the pitfalls in the project.

I partially agree.

Some customer get argumentative when you tell them of any problems that may arrive;
the other chap didn't mention that
they make references to you trying to get more work from the job

Went to one 18 months ago- shop being converted to a house, people owned the flat above and had bought the shop.

Looked at job, existing wiring was not installed correctly- cables on top of joists, not drilled through.

Asked to look at existing consumer unit (upstairs)- 'why do you need to see up there, nobody else that quoted asked for this?'
The power for downstairs will be coming from the existing consumer unit, so I needed to see if space was available.

Looked at it and noticed a MCB missing and no blank in place- potentially fatal shock hazard. Mentioned this and offered to fix it for free (even if I didn't get the quote), as I noticed they had kids (toys etc)
Lady declined the offer and asked me to leave, which I did.

Sent a recorded delivery letter notifying them of a potentially dangerous situation.
Husband called going nuts at me.
I expalined my situation, and told him I offered to fix it for free, and his wife declined.
I asked him why he was asking me why I was the only person to tell him of the problem (got him look in the meter cupboard and see the hole in the front- to make him see my point)
Also pointed out he should more concerned about the other people who didn't point out the unsafe situation, rather than the one that made an effort.

My point:
If you point out all the things that go wrong before you quote, you are 'escalating the job'. You also are unlikely to get the job.

If you don't you are being somewhat shady.

sloughflint

Did you see my pm, baldelectrician

bylromarha

We thought we were paying for expertise, hence the fact that when this came up we were shocked. We'd pointed out the manhole cover which is an obvious problem to a householder and asked if there was anything else that could add extra on. he said no...but all verbal, so can't be proved.

Still don't see how £4k is reasonable for 2 days work by 2 men, hire of equipment for 2 days and 1 structural engineer consultant fee. No detailed quote so far. I am shocked about not paying him too, but am also shocked that he did not forsee the problem. Once we get the quote, we'll make a final decision, but if it is completely unreasonable, then we'll probably offer around £1-1.5k as full and final payment and small claims if he feels the rest is justified.

As for quoting, the builder came round to quote before any plans had been drawn up. The other who we could get to the house to quote said nothing about the trees, nor the manhole cover, nor the access issue there would be...then we had to chase them for 4 weeks before we got a written quote. when prompted to comment "oh, should be fine". I couldn't even get a 3rd to come round and quote...I rang everyone in the yellow pages (which wasn't the easiest thing to do with a week old baby) and the 2 that said they'd come round never did and the rest wouldn't as we hadn't submitted plans to council at that point. We posted our plans off to another 10 builders after we had planning permission and only 1 of them wrote back with a quote.

baldelectrician...I do see your point about not having too high a quote but if he'd said "sorry to tell you this, but that tree right there will cause you problems whoever you go with" then we would have done some research and seen he was right...then we still would have gone with him as he was extremely professional, did what he said he was going to do and gave a really good impression and had a good portfolio.

Lifeisbutadream

I am very very shocked that you are considering not paying. That is how businesses go under and why so many people end up on the bankrupt site on here!

The builder will have booked in your entire extension, not just a week - he may have turned other work away as well and he may have to pay for materials that he has ordered.

He says that he can do the extension, but that it will cost more - why not discuss with him what the costs are likely to be and compromise that if he agrees that it wont go over a certain amount, then you will go ahead - that way you get your extension, the builder is able to pay his costs and hopefully you will all end up happy.

Good luck - I hope you sort it out.

bylromarha

am very dubious of the whole thing now.

he included in his quote for extra work the figure 1m of digging + concrete would cost from the original quotation so we used this as a basis for negotiation

however, he dug to 2m without our permission

we told him this, plus the fact that every builder we've had round since spotted the poplar tree, plus the fact that the local authority building control book names these trees, plus the fact all the builders are shocked that he dug to the drain rather than opening the manhole cover and looking in.

he made a few "can't see how." "not quite sure" comments, but quite happily agreed to the £1000 figure we proposed as full and final payment for work to date without quibble. a drop of £2.5k that he'd originally quoted.

so does he think we'd win if we tried to sue him for bad workmanship?

Edited to say: Now got really confusing. the guy who actually dug the footings has just been round, he's a seperate company and told me all sorts of stuff about how builder's trying to stiff him and what rumours do the rounds about him.

Joy! think we'll just pay him off, be rid of the whole silly situation and get someone else to fill it in or get a conservatory.

Just had enough now.