Electric heating in new flat.

mr_jrt

Hi all.

I've just moved into a new flat in Brighton (my first place out from my folks too), and the landlord has fitted a fancy electric central heating system (wet radiators) that is supposed to give instant hot water (I suspect using vacuum tanks). The manual says it's supposed to charge up on off-peak and then let you use it all day. Problem is, I get no hot water automatically - I have to use the boost button to heat a smaller tank, and that takes 45 minutes or so. The boiler however has no controls for telling it when off-peak is - so I assume it's automatic, or broken! I get a rough idea of how it's meant to work from the boost though - I can use it the night before and have a quick hot shower the next day...but it's a much smaller tank than the main one, so doesn't last long enough for a long shower, let alone doing any washing up as well without another boost (and waiting 45 minutes!).

So question 1 is: Can appliances detect off-peak electricity, and is it likely this is how it's meant to work?

Question 2: Would it be worth me switching to Eco7 rather than repeatedly having to boost several times a day?

Question 3: Do Companies charge to change the meter to a Eco7 one? - ...and should my landlord cover this if the boiler only works properly with an off-peak tariff?

I've measured my first week's usage, and it comes in at 193 units, or averaged 27.5 units a day. I suspect this will rise as I only set up my PC halfway through the week, though I have also turned the heating down from 20 to 18 (high) and 15 to 8 (low).

Question 4 is: Is that a reasonable figure for an electrically heated flat with just me in it?

penrhyn

27 units a day will be costing you around £4.00, £28 / week, £112 / month!!!!!

Thats an awful lot of electricity, is there any means of controlling the radiators, timer / room thermostat.

If you are on an economy 7 tariff then all your electricity used during the off peak hours will be charged at the lower rate, is there some sort of timer on the water heating circuit?

macman

What tariff are you on?
Do you have a dual rate (E7 ) meter?
With E7 there will normally be a boost function for extra hot water, but of course this will be charged at peak rate.

lithopsian

The majority of your current electricity use is down to the heater. Nothing else you do will make much of a dent. I suspect that either your landlord or you has been sold a lemon. Are these electric radiators individually powered, or do they all run from the same set of pipes running through a single heater like a boiler? Either way, nothing you describe seems to offer the prospect of storing night-time heat to release during the day so you'll be stuck heating with very expensive electricity. Are you positive you aren't on Economy 7? That would make your daytime electricity even more expensive. Do you have a water tank somewhere? That is the only realistic way to store hot water although. It would need to be operated on a timer to heat up at night and would hopefully store enough water for the whole day, most of the time at least. It won't be able to automatically detect when electricity is cheaper. You will have to be on Economy 7 (or another two-tier system), know when the cheap hours are, and set the timer accordingly.

mr_jrt

Just for context, the system is a Heatrae Sadia ElectroMax. (I'd link to the site but the board won't let me - Google "heatrae sadia electromax" and it was the top result for me).

The Electromax is a combined electric central heating boiler and unvented storage water heater. The electric boiler provides heat to the water that is pumped around the radiators / underfoor heating system in your property thus warming it up. The water heater operates independently to the boiler and provides a full tank of domestic hot water heated by Off-Peak electricity. Should this hot water store be fully used a “Boost” element is fitted to provide a smaller quantity of water in a shorter time. This can be used any time needed as it works off a 24 hour electrical supply.

The installation instructions linked there list the performance of the cylinder, and suggest each boost is 3 kwH to give 57 litres @ 3 kwH x 60 mins (the main off-peak tank is 9 khW to give 180 litres @ 3 x 180 mins).

...it also heavily suggests economy 10 use...which is no good to me as EDF doesn't accept new customers.

penrhyn wrote: »

Thats an awful lot of electricity, is there any means of controlling the radiators, timer / room thermostat.

The radiators have the usual settings (frost/0-5), and the heating as a whole has a thermostat/timer.

penrhyn wrote: »

If you are on an economy 7 tariff then all your electricity used during the off peak hours will be charged at the lower rate, is there some sort of timer on the water heating circuit?

No, no timer on the hot water circuit, just on/off and the boost.

macman wrote: »

What tariff are you on?

No idea yet, only received the paperwork for my account yesterday afternoon.

macman wrote: »

Do you have a dual rate (E7 ) meter?

No, AFAICT the meter is a standard one with only one set of numbers and no buttons to toggle them.

macman wrote: »

With E7 there will normally be a boost function for extra hot water, but of course this will be charged at peak rate.

lithopsian wrote: »

Are these electric radiators individually powered, or do they all run from the same set of pipes running through a single heater like a boiler?

Central boiler, essentially just like a gas system.

lithopsian wrote: »

Either way, nothing you describe seems to offer the prospect of storing night-time heat to release during the day so you'll be stuck heating with very expensive electricity. Are you positive you aren't on Economy 7?

Going by the meter, yup. I've asked EDF to confirm though.[/quote]

lithopsian wrote: »

That would make your daytime electricity even more expensive.

My concern indeed. One discussion I read suggests these boilers are designed to operate with economy 10...but EDF aren't accepting new customers.

lithopsian wrote: »

Do you have a water tank somewhere? That is the only realistic way to store hot water although. It would need to be operated on a timer to heat up at night and would hopefully store enough water for the whole day, most of the time at least. It won't be able to automatically detect when electricity is cheaper. You will have to be on Economy 7 (or another two-tier system), know when the cheap hours are, and set the timer accordingly.

There is a tank in the boiler, but there's no timer. I just don't get any hot water unless I boost, which is why I wondered if it was automatic as the manual just says it uses offpeak electricity to heat the water. Reading the installation manual I found suggests it requires a second off-peak supply to be wired in, suggesting the meter does the switching. If my landlord (who built these flats) didn't put the extra mains cabling in to get from the meter....oh dear.

macman

'No idea yet, only received the paperwork for my account yesterday afternoon'.

But you choose the tariff. When you sign up for an account it's up to you to say which tariff you want. If you don't specfty then you will be put on Standard tariff-the most expensive.

Terrylw1

E10 meters were considered the type normally fit into new blocks where wet central heating is installed.

However, there are 2 types of e10, plus you will be restricted to the e10s in your area.

You've got a standard 1 rate meter, so a 2 rate single mpan e10 meter could easily be fit. Or your supplier can request you a 2 mpan 3 rate meter, which means time waiting for the 2nd mpan which the heating meter would be attached to.

If your go for e10 you will need to understand the times they work. You are in the old Seeboard region and 3 rate e10 (day, night and several day heat boosts as the 3rd reading) may not be available.

If the cost is less on these tariffs, you could switch as not all are doing what eon are. Worth noting that every supplier in the country can support every type of metet rut there, its part of their licence however over the years they have decided they would push customers away or force them into meter changes. A big well done to ofgem on that score.

Usually these type of meter changes are free, they choose to penalise the easy target...those with prepayment metering.

lithopsian

Nothing fancy about the heater. It is the electric equivalent of a typical gas boiler. Ideally you need a tariff that provides you some periods of cheap electricity when you need heating. That might be an E10 tariff. Otherwise you are going to need a second job to pay for it!

The Electromax does use an unvented hot water cylinder which should give you nice hot water pressure for a shower. I think you've already spotted the reason that you don't have a tank full of hot water, and that's because the boiler heats the tank whenever the off-peak electricity input is live. If yours isn't even wired in, and you don't have a dual-rate tariff anyway, then you really have been sold a lemon.

mr_jrt

I've had a chat about this with my landlord and got them out to examine the boiler. They've said that EDF have put the wrong meters in, and they'll also be coming to fit a timer switch to the boiler's offpeak input. Horay!

macman wrote: »

'No idea yet, only received the paperwork for my account yesterday afternoon'.

But you choose the tariff. When you sign up for an account it's up to you to say which tariff you want. If you don't specfty then you will be put on Standard tariff-the most expensive.

No, I didn't. I've had no contact with EDF before that letter at all. If you wanted to point the finger anywhere, it'd be at my landlord! ...but they say a mistake has been made, so EDF is probably at fault here.

Terrylw1 wrote: »

E10 meters were considered the type normally fit into new blocks where wet central heating is installed.

<snip>

If the cost is less on these tariffs, you could switch as not all are doing what eon are. Worth noting that every supplier in the country can support every type of metet rut there, its part of their licence however over the years they have decided they would push customers away or force them into meter changes. A big well done to ofgem on that score.

Usually these type of meter changes are free, they choose to penalise the easy target...those with prepayment metering.

Cheers for that - good to know. All new to me!

lithopsian wrote: »

Nothing fancy about the heater. It is the electric equivalent of a typical gas boiler. Ideally you need a tariff that provides you some periods of cheap electricity when you need heating. That might be an E10 tariff. Otherwise you are going to need a second job to pay for it!

The Electromax does use an unvented hot water cylinder which should give you nice hot water pressure for a shower. I think you've already spotted the reason that you don't have a tank full of hot water, and that's because the boiler heats the tank whenever the off-peak electricity input is live. If yours isn't even wired in, and you don't have a dual-rate tariff anyway, then you really have been sold a lemon.

I think I may be sorted come Monday, hopefully. Another perfect storm of mistakes it would seem...

Just to confirm then, even though EDF (who are the local 'leccy board) don't take on new E10 customers, I can switch to E10 from another supplier that is? E7 will be more than adequate for the hot water and the morning heat, but not much use for the evenings!

...though with summer coming up it's not exactly a pressing problem. As I mentioned, dropping the temps to 8/18 and the weather warming up slightly has cut my usage down to 9.5 units a day on average, which is much more in line with my budget.

Terrylw1

3 rate e10 is just unpopular because its newer metering so it meant understanding the consumption over time to create the prices. Some may have decided they don't want this and 2 mpan metering was not in all areas before deregulation hence the suppliers couldn't bill them as their billing engines couldn't cope.

Npower can do it, but that's not an endorsement. Bgas use a SAP system now so can probably support it if they are choosing to sell it. I think Scottish Power do it and its clearly noted on their website. Checking their websites to see if e10 is mentioned will be a good clue.

I think the single mpan e10 has different times than the e7 in some regiions so its in bursts. The dual mpan 3 rate type usually has several bursts to cover heating in the afternoon and night. It might be worth looking on the old host suppliers website as they may understand them more.

Richie-from-the-Boro

Originally Posted by macman "" But you choose the tariff. When you sign up for an account it's up to you to say which tariff you want. If you don't specify then you will be put on Standard tariff-the most expensive ""

- yes you did my friend, you are on a 'deemed contract' with your supplier, its up to you to switch / change tariff regardless of landlord!
- if you make no intervention you are accepting the status-quo - the state in which your landlord initially contracted the service
- and that regardless of other issues ref E7 / E10 will usually be the most expensive tariff - unless you seek to make it otherwise

What you may or may not know is (1) that E10 is the luxury end of E7 and that there are (2) few by comparison with E7, suppliers of E10. When this initial debacle is resolved you may wish to consider the more fundamental question (3) do I need E10? or the cheaper E7, with more competitors in the market place, and what is the cheapest tariff / supplier.