Trains- Penalty Fare legality

ChrisJBarnes91

hi,

I was given a penalty fare on a southern train recently, paid the single fare and left my correct address. I've written to them saying "I'm not going to pay it" using information from this useful article:

http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/news/10-ways-to-avoid-penalty-fares-on-trains-6762684.html

I've now received a letter back saying that they still expect me to pay the remaining £15. Can anyone give me any advice on whether these are actually legal? I am moving to Kenya on Wednesday, and was considering writing back again to them once again saying that I am considering the matter closed unless they take me to court, and then mentioning my Kenya address and asking them not to send any further correspondence to my UK address.

Would I be right in thinking that they will probably send a lot of "legal" threats and debt collection letters and then drop it eventually?

Thanks,

Chris

McKneff

For the sake of £15 I would just pay it because you owe it and yes of course its legal, you broke the rules.

Then you can go off to Kenya with a clean slate and a happy conscience.

Karma rules.

Livingthedream

ChrisJBarnes91 wrote: »

hi,

I was given a penalty fare on a southern train recently, paid the single fare and left my correct address. I've written to them saying "I'm not going to pay it" using information from this useful article:

http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/news/10-ways-to-avoid-penalty-fares-on-trains-6762684.html

Can I ask which one of the 'famous 10 get out of jail free cards' are you using to avoid payment?

ChrisJBarnes91 wrote: »

I've now received a letter back saying that they still expect me to pay the remaining £15. Can anyone give me any advice on whether these are actually legal?

That article was published in 2009, TOC's and TfL have now cleaned up their acts, but again how are you challenging payment, with this info perhaps we could advise better.

ChrisJBarnes91 wrote: »

I am moving to Kenya on Wednesday, and was considering writing back again to them once again saying that I am considering the matter closed unless they take me to court, and then mentioning my Kenya address and asking them not to send any further correspondence to my UK address.

Unfortunately it's not up to you to consider the matter closed, it's up to Southern or a Court. Would mentioning Kenya make a difference, I don't know, it might make them think it's not worth the hassle or it could give them a forwarding address for the court papers?

ChrisJBarnes91 wrote: »

Would I be right in thinking that they will probably send a lot of "legal" threats and debt collection letters and then drop it eventually?

Thanks,

Chris

No they would cancel the Penalty Fare and prosecute you under byelaw 18 in your absence. And as you wouldn't be in the country to pay the magistrates' fine a CCJ could be issued against you. If you plan to return to the UK this will affect your credit rating. All for the hassle of £15

Stigy

ChrisJBarnes91 wrote: »

hi,

I was given a penalty fare on a southern train recently, paid the single fare and left my correct address. I've written to them saying "I'm not going to pay it" using information from this useful article:

http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/news/10-ways-to-avoid-penalty-fares-on-trains-6762684.html

I've now received a letter back saying that they still expect me to pay the remaining £15. Can anyone give me any advice on whether these are actually legal? I am moving to Kenya on Wednesday, and was considering writing back again to them once again saying that I am considering the matter closed unless they take me to court, and then mentioning my Kenya address and asking them not to send any further correspondence to my UK address.

Would I be right in thinking that they will probably send a lot of "legal" threats and debt collection letters and then drop it eventually?

Thanks,

Chris

I'm not even going to open that link as I assume it's the usual Evening Standard drivel.

You could find the PFN cancelled and a court summons issued for a Mags court (not a County Court). Yes they are legal. I trust you supplied a name as well as an address, which is your legal requirement?

passatrider

'Tight as a ducks ar*e'...pay the flippin £15 and get on with your life in Kenya!

McKneff

passatrider wrote: »

'Tight as a ducks ar*e'...pay the flippin £15 and get on with your life in Kenya!

And that' water tight

Joe_Horner

Calm down dears!!!!

It's all well and good saying "pay and move on" but if the OP had a valid reason for not having a ticket then why should he? I know that's a big "if" but, until he explains why the penalty fare was issued, it's not really MSE type advice to "just pay up"

So, OP, what (really) happened and why was the penalty issued?

ChrisJBarnes91

Hi all, thanks for your replies. Apologies for not clarifying properly earlier- I sent them this letter which explains all. I was going to post it but couldnt access it.

I know its only £15, but its the principle really- I dont like these people pretending to have power. I got a letter back saying the appeal had been rejected because "I made no attempt to join the queue". Although, if you read my letter, at no point does it state that I made no attempt to join the queue.

Maybe i should just pay up and stop moaning, but anything to fight the machine really! Maybe ill send a letter reaffirming my previous points, and saying please direct all future correspondence to my kenya address.


Dear Sir or Madam,

I was very annoyed this morning to receive a penalty fare invoice at Horsham Train Station on 29th February 2012 at 09:05, and I am writing to outline the reasons why I will not be paying it.

I boarded the 0848 Southern Service from Crawley to Horsham, having planned to purchase a ticket at Horsham. Technical faults with the machine at Crawley had meant that I have been unable to purchase a ticket, and queues at the ticket office would have taken an excessive amount of time and would have caused me to miss my train. Penalty Fare Rules 2002 Rule 7 (4) states that a penalty fare must not be charged "if ... there were no facilities available for selling the appropriate ticket or other authority for the journey the person wanted to make". Department for Transport guidance (Penalty Fares Policy clauses 4.2 and 4.11) state that queues over 5 minutes breach the definition of what is “sufficient opportunity” to purchase.

The revenue protection inspector stated that I was being fined because I should have purchased my ticket from a conductor, although having looked for one on the train there was none to be found. In any case, how can you possibly expect someone to walk the entire length of a crowded 12 carriage train on a 7 minute journey in peak time to find a conductor?

I know my rights, and I know that this penalty fare invoice has absolutely no legal grounds whatsoever, and that the revenue protection inspector who issued it was wrong to do so. I would also suggest that her conduct was inappropriate, as she also stated that I could be “prosecuted” if I didn’t pay, which is totally inaccurate. There is no criminal offence in not purchasing a ticket before boarding a train, and the invoice would not be enforced in a county court.

Other people may believe these false claims, and it is totally inappropriate to “bully” passengers into paying legally dubious penalty fares by making inaccurate statements. I would also suggest that paying ticket inspectors commission compromises their ability to make a judgement using common sense, leading to ridiculous circumstances like these. If I had more time, I would make an official complaint.

You will see from the copy of the receipt that I have paid the full fare (£4.50) as planned at the end of my journey at Horsham. I will not pay the remaining £15.50 of this falsely given penalty fare invoice. I am now considering the matter closed, please do not contact me again unless it is to apologise for the inconvenience caused.

Yours Faithfully,

Chris Barnes

wealdroam

ChrisJBarnes91 wrote: »

I know my rights, and I know that this penalty fare invoice has absolutely no legal grounds whatsoever, and that the revenue protection inspector who issued it was wrong to do so. I would also suggest that her conduct was inappropriate, as she also stated that I could be “prosecuted” if I didn’t pay, which is totally inaccurate. There is no criminal offence in not purchasing a ticket before boarding a train, and the invoice would not be enforced in a county court.

I think it is this paragraph that lets you down.

As has already been explained, your assertions are wrong.

And do you think that stating things like "has absolutely no legal grounds whatsoever" is going to win support for your cause?

Sorry, but as you have found out, your approach was always going to fail.

Stigy

ChrisJBarnes91 wrote: »

Hi all, thanks for your replies. Apologies for not clarifying properly earlier- I sent them this letter which explains all. I was going to post it but couldnt access it.

I know its only £15, but its the principle really- I dont like these people pretending to have power. I got a letter back saying the appeal had been rejected because "I made no attempt to join the queue". Although, if you read my letter, at no point does it state that I made no attempt to join the queue.

Maybe i should just pay up and stop moaning, but anything to fight the machine really! Maybe ill send a letter reaffirming my previous points, and saying please direct all future correspondence to my kenya address.


Dear Sir or Madam,

I was very annoyed this morning to receive a penalty fare invoice at Horsham Train Station on 29th February 2012 at 09:05, and I am writing to outline the reasons why I will not be paying it.

I boarded the 0848 Southern Service from Crawley to Horsham, having planned to purchase a ticket at Horsham. Technical faults with the machine at Crawley had meant that I have been unable to purchase a ticket, and queues at the ticket office would have taken an excessive amount of time and would have caused me to miss my train. Penalty Fare Rules 2002 Rule 7 (4) states that a penalty fare must not be charged "if ... there were no facilities available for selling the appropriate ticket or other authority for the journey the person wanted to make". Department for Transport guidance (Penalty Fares Policy clauses 4.2 and 4.11) state that queues over 5 minutes breach the definition of what is “sufficient opportunity” to purchase.

The revenue protection inspector stated that I was being fined because I should have purchased my ticket from a conductor, although having looked for one on the train there was none to be found. In any case, how can you possibly expect someone to walk the entire length of a crowded 12 carriage train on a 7 minute journey in peak time to find a conductor?

I know my rights, and I know that this penalty fare invoice has absolutely no legal grounds whatsoever, and that the revenue protection inspector who issued it was wrong to do so. I would also suggest that her conduct was inappropriate, as she also stated that I could be “prosecuted” if I didn’t pay, which is totally inaccurate. There is no criminal offence in not purchasing a ticket before boarding a train, and the invoice would not be enforced in a county court.

Other people may believe these false claims, and it is totally inappropriate to “bully” passengers into paying legally dubious penalty fares by making inaccurate statements. I would also suggest that paying ticket inspectors commission compromises their ability to make a judgement using common sense, leading to ridiculous circumstances like these. If I had more time, I would make an official complaint.

You will see from the copy of the receipt that I have paid the full fare (£4.50) as planned at the end of my journey at Horsham. I will not pay the remaining £15.50 of this falsely given penalty fare invoice. I am now considering the matter closed, please do not contact me again unless it is to apologise for the inconvenience caused.

Yours Faithfully,

Chris Barnes

I have to say, after reading that letter I'm not surprised they rejected your appeal!

You stated that you "would have" been queuing for a significant amount of time, which indicates that you had not joined the queue and were instead suggesting that the queue looked too long.

You go on to state that you know your rights, which they'll hate, lol. Unfortunately your grasp of criminal law isn't as good as you apparently knowing your rights. Boarding a train without buying a ticket where there are facilities to do so IS a criminal offence, and the County Court doesn't come in to it. It's your responsibility to purchase a ticket before boarding, and you could quite easily have been prosecuted under Railway Byelaw 18(1) and not Penalty Fared. Maybe, just maybe, you could get out of this if the Ticket Office queue was excessively long, but what about all the other people that were adhearing to the rules and queing up?

So to summerise. If you don't pay they CAN and probably WILL prosecute you in the Mags court, cancelling the notice and using the Byelaw I listed above. Also, RPIs do not earn commission on anything. Pay the PFN.

ChrisJBarnes91

After reading your replies, Ive gritted my teeth and begrudgingly paid it. obviously not as cut and dry as Id thought, although I still do think its an absolute swindle.

Still, thanks for your advice.