new rail scam

prof1961

From memory, off-peak journeys used to be defined as the major part of journey: eg you could travel the few miles from a connecting station (such as Selly Oak-SO, Birmingham) to the main station (Birmingham New Street- BNS) for onward longer-distance travel (eg to Sheffield), and get the first off peak train from BNS.

I noticed the other day that first off peak BNS-Shefield return fare was about £40, but catching connecting train from SO made total over £70. In other words, the tail wags the dog, and the whole journey is now 'peak'. Put another way, it is about £30 more expensive when the peak SO-BNS return is about £4. Of course, you can split ticket, BUT you have to know about this, and the rail site does not tell you this.

wealdroam

prof1961 wrote: »

Of course, you can split ticket, BUT you have to know about this, and the rail site does not tell you this.

Yes, the 'rail site' does not tell you this, but MSE's Cheap Train Tickets article explains split ticketing, and more.
There is even a video on how to split tickets there.

Sorry, but where's the scam?

Obukit

wealdroam wrote: »

Sorry, but where's the scam?

Because they are not giving you the cheapest possible fare. This is partially because of the complicated fare system, but few other businesses would get away with it. Imagine if you took your car to a garage for a service and MOT, and they told you it was £150, but if you bought the service and MOT separately it would cost you 2 x £60, or if you bought the oil + air filter + coolant + oil filter + MOT separately it would be £100.

That is exactly what the train companies are doing, but they don't tell you buying tickets separately is cheaper!

Owain_Moneysaver

Obukit wrote: »

Because they are not giving you the cheapest possible fare.

They are giving you the point to point fare as published in the National Fares Manual and (where appliccable) regulated by Parliament.

Obukit wrote: »

This is partially because of the complicated fare system, but few other businesses would get away with it. Imagine if you took your car to a garage for a service and MOT, and they told you it was £150, but if you bought the service and MOT separately it would cost you 2 x £60, or if you bought the oil + air filter + coolant + oil filter + MOT separately it would be £100.

Do you imagine a garage would tell you that?

Obukit wrote: »

That is exactly what the train companies are doing, but they don't tell you buying tickets separately is cheaper!

Tesco don't tell you that buying a pack of mince and some tatties is cheaper than a ready made cottage pie either.

dggar

Did you ask for the cheapest possible fare that was available?

I was under the impression (though happy to be corrected) that booking office staff have to sell you the cheapest option if specifically asked.

dzug1

dggar wrote: »

Did you ask for the cheapest possible fare that was available?

I was under the impression (though happy to be corrected) that booking office staff have to sell you the cheapest option if specifically asked.

The cheapest option as one ticket, yes.

They are not obliged to search out split tickets for you - just to sell them if specifically asked

Obukit

Owain_Moneysaver wrote: »

Tesco don't tell you that buying a pack of mince and some tatties is cheaper than a ready made cottage pie either.

Yes, but they are not the same thing, you are paying for the convenience of a ready meal. With trains you will get from A to B using exactly the same trains, the difference is if you split the tickets to C and D instead it works out cheaper, and not by pennies either - this week I had to travel from Oxfordshire to Wales, which was £37.50 if I had just bought a ticket from A to B, but £19 when I split the ticket at Shrewsbury. My gran would have just trundled down to the ticket office and been overcharged by £18.50.

im-lost

Obukit wrote: »

Yes, but they are not the same thing, you are paying for the convenience of a ready meal. With trains you will get from A to B using exactly the same trains, the difference is if you split the tickets to C and D instead it works out cheaper, and not by pennies either - this week I had to travel from Oxfordshire to Wales, which was £37.50 if I had just bought a ticket from A to B, but £19 when I split the ticket at Shrewsbury. My gran would have just trundled down to the ticket office and been overcharged by £18.50.

Overcharged? surely if she asks for a ticket from a to b she gets exactly what she asks for, there is no overcharge.

There is however, the ability to save a few quid if you do your homework.

Just like you dont have to buy a shops warranty, you can do a bit of legwork, buy elsewhere and save a few quid.

yorkie2

prof1961 wrote: »

From memory, off-peak journeys used to be defined as the major part of journey: eg you could travel the few miles from a connecting station (such as Selly Oak-SO, Birmingham) to the main station (Birmingham New Street- BNS) for onward longer-distance travel (eg to Sheffield), and get the first off peak train from BNS.

BNS would appear to be Barnes rather than Birmingham New Street, which is BHM, but anyway...

I'm not sure how long ago what you describe was defined, but in the days of British Rail in the 1980s/1990s, the fare that is currently called "Off Peak Return" and has the code 'SVR' was called the "Saver Return", this had no time restrictions whatsoever.

Cross Country Trains have a time restriction on this ticket so it is now not valid until 0930. So if you leave Selly Oak at 0925 then yes, the entire journey is peak. You can buy a combination of tickets so that you only pay peak rates for the part of your journey that really is peak; this is explained in Martin Lewis' guide to split ticketing (have you seen the video or read the page about it?)

It was Virgin who originally held the Cross Country franchise and changed these tickets from valid at any time to valid from 0930. Now it is held by Arriva - who are too embarrassed to put their name to it, and have no plans to reverse this policy; indeed the opposite is the case and they have expanded the number of tickets where the 0930 restriction applies even further!

There is only one direct train from Par to York, but an Off Peak Return is not valid as the train is scheduled to depart at 0928 which is before 0930. The cheapest return ticket is £333. Last year it was £151.90, but CrossCountry changed the restrictions. The ticket office are not supposed to advise this, but savvy passengers will use a combination of tickets to reduce the price. For example, Par to Plymouth Off Peak Return is £11.40, and from Plymouth to York Off Peak Return is £142.10, totalling £153.50.

It's not a case of a tail wagging a dog, it's not a scam, it's not the ticket office staff fault that they are not supposed to give you advice. At the end of the day, you either pay the daft fares, or you do your research and pay lower fares. If you do not know how to find the cheaper fares, there are websites such as this one where people can show you how to do it.

The Train Companies make a lot of money by charging well-off people who don't have the time to check money saving sites, well over the odds, and there's nothing we can do to change that.