Solar Panels --- a bit of a Gimmick

pwllbwdr

Indeed Graham. I've never put anyone on ignore before.

londonTiger

solar panels are a complete gimmick, they're OK to use in hot countries, but the yeild in the UK is just not worth it.

you get ROI after 12.5 years provided all the equpment last that timeframe. But a solar panel kit will not last that long, the batteries will need replacement several times within that period. The solar panel technology may improve so you may buy new panels (which sets back the ROI date more than 12.5 years).

Though based to recent trends all evidence points to solar panel efficiency reaching it's peak as the improvements become small and smaller. Unless solar panel technology changes drastically, the yield isn't going to improve by a huge margin.

Solar panels are not currently "green", production leaves a large carbon footprint. It's only good for so called energy security, which IMO is pretty secure. We'll go to war with anyone who threatens our energy.

solar panels are worth it with the huge tax subsidies, but without them, it's just a gimmick.

Martyn1981

londonTiger wrote: »

solar panels are a complete gimmick, they're OK to use in hot countries, but the yeild in the UK is just not worth it.

you get ROI after 12.5 years provided all the equpment last that timeframe. But a solar panel kit will not last that long, the batteries will need replacement several times within that period. The solar panel technology may improve so you may buy new panels (which sets back the ROI date more than 12.5 years).

Though based to recent trends all evidence points to solar panel efficiency reaching it's peak as the improvements become small and smaller. Unless solar panel technology changes drastically, the yield isn't going to improve by a huge margin.

Solar panels are not currently "green", production leaves a large carbon footprint. It's only good for so called energy security, which IMO is pretty secure. We'll go to war with anyone who threatens our energy.

solar panels are worth it with the huge tax subsidies, but without them, it's just a gimmick.

Hello London Tiger.

Yields, it's true that the UK and northern Europe won't get the same solar levels as countries closer to the Equator, but we still get some sunshine. The midlands will get about 60% of the levels received in S. Spain.

Solar panel lifetimes, the kit is actually remarkably 'solid', systems have been operating for decades. Most systems being installed now should run for 40 years with little maintenance. However the inverters will need replacing as and when they fail, though their lifetimes are getting longer, and some are now being sold with 25 year warranties.

Batteries, not sure what you mean. The inverters may contain 'watch' type batteries for data back-up. Replacement won't be the end of the world.

Upgrading panels, no real need, even if panel tech improves, why change the system if it's working fine.

Panel improvement and yield, standard panels are about 14% to 16% efficient, some hybrids are around 20% to 22% efficient. It's the cost of the panels that dictates yield / ROI more than there efficiency. Using the USA as an example, prices have fallen consistently over the last 30 years, from $70/Watt, to $7/Watt about 5 years ago, to about 70c/Watt now. So the yield in terms of energy to cost is still increasing dramatically.

Regarding CO2 levels, opinions vary, and installed location will obviously have an effect too. But generally around 2 years of use to save their own CO2 production costs, and possibly around 3.5 to 4 years to cover all other components etc in the install. So if they last 40 years, and even then are still running at 80% original efficiency, not bad.

Mart.

don0301

grahamc2003 wrote: »

While I admire you for patience beyond the call of duty, I really can't see how you ever expect anything other than a nonsensical post with a dollop of abuse from Don. A cut and paste of a long reasoned post followed by just several words usually unconnected. At first, I thought it was just responses to me, then you and Cardew got the same, and now it's everybody, with the exception of maybe just one equally clueless.

Don, you didn't until recently have a job installing panels did you? Did you previously post as K4Blades on this forum?

While it's quite disturbing watching anyone sensible with good ideas and knowledge getting shouted down by your ubiquitous and universal argument 'I am right, you are wrong' (and that's the extent of any reasoning you put forward) together with abuse ensuring most think twice before bothering to post again. I sometimes wonder of the value of this thread to newcomers looking for reasonable information.

Yes, I'm a panel installer....*rolls eyes*

While you find it inconvenient that i point out rubbish that people like you post on here as 'fact', please press the point and i will link many examples.

don0301

grahamc2003 wrote: »

While I admire you for patience beyond the call of duty, I really can't see how you ever expect anything other than a nonsensical post with a dollop of abuse from Don. A cut and paste of a long reasoned post followed by just several words usually unconnected. At first, I thought it was just responses to me, then you and Cardew got the same, and now it's everybody, with the exception of maybe just one equally clueless.

Don, you didn't until recently have a job installing panels did you? Did you previously post as K4Blades on this forum?

While it's quite disturbing watching anyone sensible with good ideas and knowledge getting shouted down by your ubiquitous and universal argument 'I am right, you are wrong' (and that's the extent of any reasoning you put forward) together with abuse ensuring most think twice before bothering to post again. I sometimes wonder of the value of this thread to newcomers looking for reasonable information.

abuse?

like saying I'm from Dale farm?

or saying I have no intelligence?

saying I'm an ex- Solar installer? (what are you trying to say anyway with that? )

Ad nauseam...

oh, wait i cant use statements like that, I'm not intelligent...

i must have copy pasted wiki....

no, wait, that makes me an expert!.....

jimjames

londonTiger wrote: »

solar panels are a complete gimmick, they're OK to use in hot countries, but the yeild in the UK is just not worth it.

you get ROI after 12.5 years provided all the equpment last that timeframe. But a solar panel kit will not last that long, the batteries will need replacement several times within that period. The solar panel technology may improve so you may buy new panels (which sets back the ROI date more than 12.5 years).

solar panels are worth it with the huge tax subsidies, but without them, it's just a gimmick.

I'm not sure where you get your ROI at 12.5 years but for our panels we are working on 6 years, possibly less depending on outputs and inflation. All estimates I've seen show that the panels should last at least the 25 years of the FIT subsidy possibly longer.

Batteries aren't needed for solar panels, or at least ours don't use any. I guess you could use them to store power for use overnight but that is a separate issue.

wuthton

pwllbwdr wrote: »

Indeed Graham. I've never put anyone on ignore before.

It's amazing the effect of putting him on ignore, the forum returns to a friendly and interesting place.

EricMears

jimjames wrote: »

I'm not sure where you get your ROI at 12.5 years but for our panels we are working on 6 years, possibly less depending on outputs and inflation. All estimates I've seen show that the panels should last at least the 25 years of the FIT subsidy possibly longer.

Batteries aren't needed for solar panels, or at least ours don't use any. I guess you could use them to store power for use overnight but that is a separate issue.

ROI (Return on Investment) is a very specific financial term meaning the amount of money you get each year expressed as a percentage of the capital cost. I suspect the term was used in error earlier on and 'payback period' was intended.

Most panels fitted recently (last couple of years) will have a guarantee of producing something (usually 80% original level) for 25 years and payback period (at the FIT rate not now being offered to new adopters) should indeed be a lot less than 12.5y.

As mentioned earlier, the batteries in some inverters are indeed small mercury cells of type used to back up computer BIOS circuits or run watches etc. and might cost a couple of pounds (but perhaps another £30 if you ask a professional electrician to turn out and fit them for you as some manuals suggest).

It would indeed be possible to set up a battery system to charge during day and run inverter overnight using circuitry analagous to an 'uninterruptible power supply'. Such a system would require very careful planning to avoid the situation whereby your 'live' house started exporting electricity to the neighbourhood during a power cut thus endangering the lives of REC linesmen ! For a useful supply lasting overnight, you'd need at least several hundred pounds worth of batteries and they'd need replacing every ten years or so. The UPS itself would also be a few hundred pounds but ought to have a reasonable service life.

jimjames

EricMears wrote: »

As mentioned earlier, the batteries in some inverters are indeed small mercury cells of type used to back up computer BIOS circuits or run watches etc. and might cost a couple of pounds (but perhaps another £30 if you ask a professional electrician to turn out and fit them for you as some manuals suggest).

Fair enought. Even if we accept the upper figure of £30 it still makes diddly squat difference to the payback period if replaced once in 10 years on an investment of £10k. 2010 was suggesting that replacement of components like batteries would be required multiple times during the 25 year FIT payment period and would dwarf the income.

jimjames

2010 wrote: »

I can`t see where I missed it as I replied in post #23.
The gov. is already starting to renege on it`s promises now they`ve got enough interest aroused.

See the final sentence of post #23 (that`s what it`s all about)

Earnings of £30k to £50k in 30 odd years

---

maybe but no guarantee.

I've read post #23 again and it is clear you don't understand Feed in Tariffs. You are not paid just for the electricity you export (although you do get a small amount for that). The main payment is for ALL electricity generated regardless whether it is used onsite or not. You also reduce your own bills by using the electricity generated.

If the sun stops shining then anyone with PV will be screwed but PV will be the least of our worries if we get no sun anymore (we need sunny summer not hot - heat makes the panels less efficient). Potentially the terms of the FIT could be changed but the recent changes were not retrospective precisely because existing FIT installations have an agreed payment for 25 years. All we need is 6 years, possibly less, to pay back our installation. Beyond that any changes would be unreasonable and break the terms but we would still be getting free electricity for at least 25 years.