Tax Penalty Letter

piccybabes

In January I completed a Self Assessment on line ( I have a let Property) and made a small payment of the Tax owed by debit card on 9th Jan for the year April 10-11.

I've just received a letter from HMRC saying that I am being find £100 for non-completion of a self assessment.

Anybody else had a letter even though tax has been paid?

pjclar02

Hello there

For 2010/11 tax returns, the payment of tax is irrelevant. If the tax return was filed by 2 February then there should be no penalty. If the tax return was filed after 2 February, there will be a £100 penalty regardless of whether the tax due was paid.

Presumably you can provide a submission receipt to prove the return was filed before the deadline?

John_Pierpoint

Oh dear, this suggests that there is no reconciliation between the (lost?) return in the on-line system and the tax paid. Up until this January the technique of giving HMRC an "bung" approximate to but over the likely total tax liability stymied the penalty payment. Now we have a system that appears to have "lost" the return.
However silly i sounds, I would start by checking that after several dummy runs to check the calculation, you did actually submit the self assessment return.
Let us know the final explanation and outcome when you complete the appeal form. Try not to be sarcastic or abusive;):D

chrismac1

It should help you to know that at least one Tribunal in 2011 held that a valid attempt to make a tax submission was made, and hence flung out the penalty. Note you'll get folk saying I always mention Tribunals in post 1, fair enough as it is miles to go yet.

But unless you have clear evidence - in the form of a date and time stamp - that you submitted this to the HMRC database by 2 Feb 2012 (2 days' grace due to strike) then you may find it hard to get anywhere within the HMRC processes and appeals. It may be useful to you to know that other people have had fines quoshed on these grounds once they have gone 12 rounds.

piccybabes

At present I have checked my bank statements and there is a debit of £X.XX to HMRC on 9th January 2012.

This was paid by the following the link on the Self Assessment form when the amount of tax was calculated.

I would have anticipated that if a payment was made through the self assessment process then that constitutes submission of the on -line self assessment. But maybe not?

I remember thinking it odd at the time that there was no confirmation email.

I will check my self assessment accoun online tonight - don't have the login details here at work.

chrismac1

Definitely not I am afraid. Suppose you paid them £1,000. Without your return, how do HMRC know that you did not owe them a higher figure? In future, ensure you submit the return by 31 Jan, this is more important to you in terms of fines and interest (though not to the UK balance of payments!) than paying across the tax.

piccybabes

chrismac1 wrote: »

Definitely not I am afraid. Suppose you paid them £1,000. Without your return, how do HMRC know that you did not owe them a higher figure? In future, ensure you submit the return by 31 Jan, this is more important to you in terms of fines and interest (though not to the UK balance of payments!) than paying across the tax.

But the payment amount was generated from within the Self Assessment form, so maybe I assumed incorrectly and did not press a button to "submit" the actual SA.

I will challenge the fine however after I have got home and checked exactly what I did or didn't do online.

chrismac1

It sounds to me like you have a case here. In my view the HMRC website could be much clearer on when a submission really is a submission. For 90% of my submissions I use Taxcalc and have never had any situation where I've not "pressed the button" where I thought I had.

But for 2007-08 returns, for example, or VAT returns and some payroll returns I use the HMRC site. And still there are times when I think I have made a submission but I have not, the screen design I find confusing compared to Taxcalc.

And this is my living, I make the best part of 1,000 submissions per year. There have been similar postings on this site from others who have done exactly what you have done. You have a case.

agrinnall

Did you get an email from HMRC entitled Successful Receipt of Online Submission for Reference xxxxxxxxxxx? if not then you didn't actually submit it.

piccybabes

No I didn't get an email - and thought it unusual at the time and with hindsight should have followed up.

I had assumed wrongly, as it turned out, that by virtue of the creation of the payment element within the HMRC form that I had actually submitted it.

Seems a strange system that lets you calculate the tax owed, make a payment, but does not actually submit the SA form.

Can't think of another situation where the submission of a form and a payment would not be linked i.e thanks for the tax owed but by the way we'll still fine you because you haven't gone back and submitted the form.

Anyway I will check tonight to see what I should have done and I will submit the **££"%$** form.

Mikeyorks

piccybabes wrote: »

Seems a strange system that lets you calculate the tax owed, make a payment, but does not actually submit the SA form.

But you didn't make a payment directly from the submission data. If there was a direct correllation between filing / paying .... then the millions who file early wouldn't do so. As they would then be expected to go on and pay - sometimes months before the due date.

You picked up the amount due from the pre-submission calculation and then linked to a 3rd party provider (BillPay) - and keyed in the amount you wished to pay. Fairly clear - from what you say - that you didn't actually submit the completed Return.