Sent Court Fine for Fare Evasion That I Did Not Commit

EmmaHerts

Hi guys,

I got sent a letter from the London Collections and Compliance yesterday asking me for money. It was entitled further steps.

[This part isn't really related but might help someone in the future if they get a similar letter and do a forum search] My first thought was that it was a fraudulent letter as it did not look official and I thought that the seal at the top looked photocopied.

I actually called my local trading standards office for advice as I couldn't find 'London Collections and Compliance' on Google, I was advised to check the hrm-courts website and found that it was a real place. [Back to problem]

When I called up I discovered it was relating to a train evasion from London Victoria in 2010 which I am sure I did not commit. London Victoria isn't convenient to get to from where I live for one thing.

The lady said that they had written previously to an address I have never lived at. It was my mother's previous address from before 2010 in a different part of the country. She had already lived somewhere else for two years by the end of 2010 and I had never lived at her address. The letter did have my correct date of birth though.

I explained this to the lady I spoke to and she has put a hold on collection. She advised me to contact Camberwell Green. I gave them a call and they told me to contact my local court and do a statement of disclosure?

My first thought was that one of my mother's old neighbours might have used my information as she did live close to some women close to my age who were Asbo-types. (I don't mean to sound mean, but the type of people who are always playing loud music, that kind of thing.) Of course, it might have been anyone who knows when my birthday is and how old I am.

When I was searching for the best way to deal with this, I even came across forum posts by people who confess to using other people's information because they were too scared to give their own.

To get to the point, if I provide payslips, etc to show that I lived somewhere else and my mother had not lived at that address for two years (and point out that I have never lived there), will that be enough? And do you think I will have to go to Court? Would they likely have any CCTV evidence so I can be proven innocent without question?

I couldn't get through to my local Court yesterday (small town hours maybe) and it would be nice to have an idea of what I should do before I try again today.

*Sorry if this is rambling, but it is almost 4am and I haven't been able to sleep for the worry*

wealdroam

EmmaHerts wrote: »

To get to the point, if I provide payslips, etc to show that I lived somewhere else and my mother had not lived at that address for two years (and point out that I have never lived there), will that be enough? And do you think I will have to go to Court? Would they likely have any CCTV evidence so I can be proven innocent without question?

Sorry, but I don't understand how you stating where you did or did not live some years ago helps.

Your best alibi is to provide proof that you were somewhere else at the alleged time and date of the offence.

And if they have some sort of cctv evidence, that will surely show they have got the wrong person, won't it?

Notmyrealname

EmmaHerts wrote: »

To get to the point, if I provide payslips, etc to show that I lived somewhere else and my mother had not lived at that address for two years (and point out that I have never lived there), will that be enough?

No. I live in East Yorks, over 250 miles from London. I've worked nowhere else than this county for decades yet in one job I was travelling down to London 5 nights a week doing deliveries.

Livingthedream

wealdroam wrote: »

Your best alibi is to provide proof that you were somewhere else at the alleged time and date of the offence.

Whilst I agree with this statement as it shows the OP to be proactive, it's not up to the OP to prove anything. It's up to the Prosecution/Train Company/debt collection agency to prove that the OP is the guilty party.

All I would do is what the lady from London Collections and Compliance stated and contact Camberwell Green and contact your local court and do a statement of disclosure.

Only when the Prosecution/Train Company/debt collection agency can prove they've got the right person will they press for a prosecution as it would be embarrassing for them if you produce in court, evidence* that shows you were out of the country at the time.

*An example

Stigy

If it wasn't you, you shouldn't have anything to worry about. However, you may well be summonsed to court so that the witnesses for the prosecution (namely the staff who reported "you") can say as to whether it was you or not. Having said that, the reporting staff member would have written a description in the report. The whole idea of writing a description in their report is that it can often eliminate anybody saying "it wasn't me guv'!". In other words, if you're a 6'2" rugby player, built like a brick sh*thouse, and the actual person who gave your details is 5'2" and slim, court shouldn't really be necessary, or at least the giving evidence part at least, as the staff member will be able to say yay or nay as far as your description goes, before even entering the dock.

Sorry if I'm unduly confused here, or have missed something. But are you saying that you knew nothing about this until now, and that the alleged offence took place in 2010? That being the case, and the fact that the court case would have taken place in your absence, you'd need to contact the court and make a statutory declaration in order to have the case relisted. That being the case, as I said earlier, you'll need to attend court, but not necessarily give evidence, as the staff may be able to eliminate you straight away.

As has been said, the more evidence you can supply that states you were not on the train that day, the better. If you can bring a witness, that would be good too. If the TOC has CCTV evidence, even better, as it 'should' be clear it wasn't you. The only issue with relying on the staff remembering, is that unless blatantly visually not the person they spoke to, it's extremely difficult to say 100% that it wasn't you, especially given that nealy 2-years has lapsed! They'll be going in blind, only with the description on their statement to guide them, and the rest of the statement to job their memories as to that day's events!

Also bear in mind that they'd need the staff ideally to say it wasn't you, although as has been said already, it's not your job to convince them it wasn't you, but theirs to convince the Magistrate that it was you.

EmmaHerts

wealdroam wrote: »

And if they have some sort of cctv evidence, that will surely show they have got the wrong person, won't it?

Yes, that is why I said "Would they likely have any CCTV evidence so I can be proven innocent without question?"

If they had CCTV of some-one else then I would be proven innocent without question, no?

wealdroam wrote: »

Sorry, but I don't understand how you stating where you did or did not live some years ago helps.

You're right, I was just shocked to hear that someone had done this and had given my mum's old address. As I said, I had googled about this kind of thing happening and came across people admitting to doing it to people they know. On the CGA website it said that the guards call a number to check you against the electoral roll, so I assumed it was important in some respect.

Update- I spoke to someone at my local court yesterday and I have to go on Monday with a statement of declaration to inform that I had no idea of any proceedings and that I was not the guilty party.

I have asked my work to provide me a letter that shows I was at work that day, and my payslips show that I did not have any holidays/time off.

Stigy wrote: »

Sorry if I'm unduly confused here, or have missed something. But are you saying that you knew nothing about this until now, and that the alleged offence took place in 2010? That being the case, and the fact that the court case would have taken place in your absence, you'd need to contact the court and make a statutory declaration in order to have the case relisted. That being the case, as I said earlier, you'll need to attend court, but not necessarily give evidence, as the staff may be able to eliminate you straight away.

Yes, I was told when I called the LCC that it took place in 2010 and she told me the address the information was sent to.

Stigy wrote: »

Having said that, the reporting staff member would have written a description in the report. The whole idea of writing a description in their report is that it can often eliminate anybody saying "it wasn't me guv'!". In other words, if you're a 6'2" rugby player, built like a brick sh*thouse, and the actual person who gave your details is 5'2" and slim, court shouldn't really be necessary, or at least the giving evidence part at least, as the staff member will be able to say yay or nay as far as your description goes, before even entering the dock..

That makes it even better! Thank you very much.

EDIT- I just wanted to add that all the people I spoke to; at my local court, Camberwell Green and the original lady at LCC were all very helpful and forthcoming with information.

Livingthedream

If the court case happened in your absence then you could have been awarded a CCJ against your name. Might be worth signing up to one of those free 14 day credit check websites?

Weird_Nev

SOunds like the deal is done - someone else has given details and been found guilty, and you are now copping the backlash.

1) you say you're "sure" it is not you? How sure? Have you EVER had a penalty fare notice/fare evasion encounter?

2) You need to write back ot the court (should be a conviction date and court) and inform them that this was not you, you have no idea how the letter has come to you, and that you are concerned someone else has supplied your details. You may find details such as the date of birth are incorrect for example. How many people know your full name, date of birth and a linked address? If it's all right, then this could well be a family member/ friend!

3) I'd actually be tempted to get legal advice, because navigating the myriad corridors of the legal system can be confusing and bewildering. And the implications of an unpaid fine/ccj can be severe!

EmmaHerts

Weird_Nev wrote: »

SOunds like the deal is done - someone else has given details and been found guilty, and you are now copping the backlash.

1) you say you're "sure" it is not you? How sure? Have you EVER had a penalty fare notice/fare evasion encounter?

2) You need to write back ot the court (should be a conviction date and court) and inform them that this was not you, you have no idea how the letter has come to you, and that you are concerned someone else has supplied your details. You may find details such as the date of birth are incorrect for example. How many people know your full name, date of birth and a linked address? If it's all right, then this could well be a family member/ friend!

3) I'd actually be tempted to get legal advice, because navigating the myriad corridors of the legal system can be confusing and bewildering. And the implications of an unpaid fine/ccj can be severe!

Where I lived in 2010 my nearest rail station was Stratford and Stratford International. I lived one stop on the tube to Stratford and the only time I've been to Victoria in many years has been when I've caught a coach and got the tube to get there. I also would have given my own address not my mother's previous one if it had been me.


The date of birth was correct which is why I was in such a panic when I got the letter. I recently applied for a passport which is how I think I got this letter so suddenly as I am signed up for Experian and there is nothing bad on it.

Edit: Thank you everyone for your suggestions, it has been very helpful.

Stigy

Livingthedream wrote: »

If the court case happened in your absence then you could have been awarded a CCJ against your name. Might be worth signing up to one of those free 14 day credit check websites?

He wont have been given a CCJ for non-payment of a Magistrates' Court fine. If you don't pay their fines they either submit a warrant for your arrest, or send the Bailiffs round.

As far as I'm aware, non-payment of any court fine is an offence in itself. County Court Judgements are issued by the County Court to enforce payment to a creditor or individual by a debtor who has refused to sort the matter out informally. If you failed to pay the CCJ, then the person who is owed the money would take further action to secure the funds, using the court system.