Prosecuted by Xcountry despite having valid ticket

esuhl

yorkie2 wrote: »

No, that is not the case.

Thanks for the clarification. Out of interest, can I ask what determines whether it is the CPS that makes the prosecution? I though civil cases were private prosecutions and criminal cases were prosecuted by the CPS. Clearly that's wrong, but... how does it work in reality?

Rover_Driver

The Crown Prosecution Service prosecute criminal cases investigated by police.

Other organisations, like the railway companies, arrange their own prosecutions.

Stigy

esuhl wrote: »

And the CPS only prosecute if it's "in the public interest". I don't see how prosecuting someone on this "technicality" could be in the public interest...

The CPS would likely not prosecute such a case if brought forward by the Police, but the TOCs are private companies doing their own prosecuing. Having said that, they still have to work to the same legal guidelines as the CPS do with regard to public interest. Basically though, the TOC look at it as though if the 'customer' wasn't dealt with in some way, the fare would have been at risk.

jackpease

OP here.

This is my thinking. Yes, i was there, yes, i waved receipt and reservation in their face, yes they checked the reservation and outgoing portion against my credit card, no, they are not prosecuting for evasion, they accept i had paid for a ticket, they are prosecuting on the technical 'unable to show valid ticket'. I have sent a letter of apology and offer to settle, lets see what that brings. If they suggest costs greater than about £100, i will go to court on principle.

I have done this before. Me on moped, minding my own business, car jumps red light, witnessed by two coppers, ambulanceman etc. Despite my injuries and clear fault of other driver, no action against bloke who wouldn't apologise, which made me annoyed. So i turned up to magistrates court, then 'laid the charge' of careless driving, on the day i represented myself, called four witnesses, he got £300 fine and nine points.

I figure that my liability if i plead not guilty and am found guilty and represent myself and just go there and state the facts, will be about £600 down and a record which won't show up on standard crb check (correct me if i am wrong). Pleading guilty/found guilty i guess will see me £400 down. A lawyer will add a few hundred quid to those costs, up front.

I reckon i have 100% chance of paying £400 if i plead guilty, a 50% chance of paying £600 if i plead not guilty. A cost benefit exercise on this would suggest the latter.

I'm not absolutely sure i need a lawyer here - I am pretty sure they will advise me to plead guilty, and that advice will cost >£100, if i plead not guilty and they advise me, that'll be a further few hundred quid.

Hey ho, whatever the outcome, i'll post it here!

Cash-Strapped.T32

I wish you the very best of luck. I know it's not up to me to tell you what to do, but I feel you should take it to court, even if the cost/benefit says no.

Just to back up the OP's point of view for a second, I would take it very personally indeed to be insulted in such a way, and let's be honest about the circumstances; Someone who has so obviously paid in full it's beyond a joke, who isn't familiar fully with the obscurities of which piece of paper they have to flash on the day (which is easily done, I once thought my receipt was the ticket, because they're printed on identical paper from the machine - so why even bother with a receipt then?), is basically mugged for another lot of money; Given the OP has paid and can prove so, I can't see how any other interpretation could exist.

Offering to pay their costs is a grand gesture, but what costs?
You already paid the price of the journey, which already includes all their costs as a business.

Other than harassing you needlessly with a bunch of copy/paste preprepared letters, what other costs could have been accrued? And if you agree to pay those costs, then you're saying they were right all along. :huh:

Perhaps I'm young & cynical but since I stopped watching Thomas the Tank Engine I never saw the railways as the great institution that many do, I can't help but see them as a bunch of corporations, no different from MacDonalds, Tescos or mobile phone networks with all their associated sneaky charges, so my kind of mental starting point is to assume that of course they'd do you for more cash if given the chance, just as any large company would.
That's why this situation doesn't surprise me at all, and to be fair I've used public transport nearly all my life all through school, college & beyond so I'm not taking the mindless Jeremy Clarkson attitude who hates all transport that's not a car.
(I'm sure the guy doesn't think that but you know what I mean)

dggar

Just a thought if this ever goes to court.

If it is claimed by XC the the OP could have passed the Return portion to someone else to use, he should ask what the procedure would be when the person checking tickets was presented with the Return portion.

I recently travelled on a XC train and a passenger near to me had a printed e-ticket. They were asked to show the card used to make the purchase or some other form of ID.

jackpease

OP here. Thanks cash strapped, ("I would take it very personally indeed to be insulted in such a way, .... someone who has so obviously paid in full it's beyond a joke, who isn't familiar fully with the obscurities of which piece of paper they have to flash on the day") sums it up perfectly.

I'm afraid i have bottled out! Xcountry offered to let me pay £60 to draw a line on this, in my head i thought over £100 costs was taking the mick and i'd fight it, but £60 - sometimes principles can be bought.

Had the court case be listed nearby, i think I would have chanced it, but i live near gatwick and the 'offence' was Manchester, it's not just money, its time too - and these things can be adjourned, it could have been more than one visit.

In the end, it is a summary offence, so the fact that Xcountry had accepted i'd paid was academic, the offence was failure to show a valid ticket.

However, at the time of being 'caught', in the XCountry's correspondence since, and in the very last letter, they continue to say that as well as the summary offence, they would prosecute me for 'intent to avoid a fare' AND THAT REALLY p*$$es me off (being old, respectable and never having ever evaded a fare in my life).

Case closed, thanks for all your help people! jack