Carrying out a disciplinary when it's not your job

DVardysShadow

Uncertain wrote: »

... I sincerely hope somebody does recognise the company from your post and gives a copy to the individual that is about to be a victim of the kangaroo court your husband is conspiring to conduct.

Hopefully it will backfire on your OH and his co conspirators and they will lose their jobs.

Outrageous!

Outrageous it is. But I would not be pointing the finger at the OP's OH.

On 2 things, ohreally, I think you and I would agree. And they are

• not to tolerate life threatening H&S issues in the workplace
• to give employees a fair hearing

As I see it, OP's OH is in a difficult position. Conducting a disciplinary is beyond him, but he is clear about what the outcome should be on the basis of what he knows - in exactly the same way as you and I would be clear if we knew the same.

I think that what he should do is to produce a report of his findings of all additional issues and send a covering letter to HR advising them that as he has investigated and found these issues, he considers that to he can take no further part, because it will compromise the process. What happens beoyond that point with the accused will be entirely the employer's responsibility.

ohreally

DVardysShadow wrote: »

Outrageous it is. But I would not be pointing the finger at the OP's OH.

On 2 things, ohreally, I think you and I would agree. And they are

• not to tolerate life threatening H&S issues in the workplace
• to give employees a fair hearing

Absolutely. It is fundamental that the process is free from bias, fair and approached with an open mind - all appear to have been side-lined as a result of managements agenda.

Lizzywig, this is a land-mine your husband should be avoiding. If he feels unable to refuse, perhaps an escape route could be found by conducting the investigation and handing over to the line manager to progress.
Personally, i would find a diplomatic escape route and keep my head below the parapet.

Acc72

DVardysShadow wrote: »

As for HR refusing to get involved, it looks like your OH is being set up as the fall guy for when the disciplinary process fails to produce the desired outcome

That was my first thought too.

lizzywig

Thank you everyone for your input, it's all appreciated and lots of angles that I had not looked at.

All of you who said that people on a forum should not be advising how to carry out a disciplinary you are of course right and I am a total idiot, or first time mum suffering from severe baby brain melt down lol. A few months ago if I'd read this post I would have said the exact same thing!! Duh. I guess what I am looking for is some general advice for my husband on how to proceed with not knowing what to do in general. He has gone back to HR but they are still refusing to provide even guidance, this is what led me here. Please forget that I asked for advice about what to do at a disciplinary, just some advice on how to deal with this muddle that would be great.

I have said from very early on that this company do not seem to know what they are doing, I think this is their biggest fault and quite often I find myself saying to DH "hang on they shouldn't be doing that".


I agree that everyone deserves a fair hearing and actually I'm writing like they're planning on getting rid of this person but I have no idea what there plans are or if they even have any plans. My husband himself is only concerned about the mistakes that this person has made and the reprecussions. The person has had thorough training on many occasions; my DH has conducted all of it. I remember the day he came home and said how the person he was training didn't seem interested and how he was fed up about it because he is so passionate about his own job. So he went back on additional occassions to provide further training - all of which this person has signed to say he knows what to do etc. However on follow ups things that should have been done have not been done. Basically this person has not been doing any of their job, they have just been making it up as they go along and not giving two hoots about who it effects. On one occassion DH asked this person if there was anything else they wanted to know to which the response was "not really, just do my hours don't I". If I were to explain the nature of this persons job you would want to see them strung up, what they have done is just awful. BUT, you don't know me and why should you believe me or understand the gravity when I can't give you all the details. At the same time I am just here for some advice so would appreciate it if you wouldn't give me a telling off. My husband is a very good man and actually has tried to help this person a lot, the outcome of the disciplinary has not been decided but as far as I am aware the issues that have been found are being discussed.

zzzLazyDaisy - I believe DH is being asked to provide evidence based on his findings, he's had to take photos, log everything etc but I think this is the problem. He doesn't really know what he's supposed to be doing and neither does the manager, who incidentally is not DH's manager, just person B's manager. I can't imagine though that he would be asked to make a decision but I know he has been asked for his opinion only of the gravity of the situation.

SarEl

I suspected that you might be taking some of your own opinion and overlaying it on what you thought your OH might think!

But if he is only being asked to write an investigation report that is somewhat simpler than if he is being asked to hear the disciplinary. But he does still need clarification as to whether he is being asked to do the investigation - all of it including interviews; or whether he is being asked to be a witness at a disciplinary - effectively an expert witness on things that he knows about. The two things are very different. In the latter case he is simply being asked to document what problems he has found, and what his opinion is about what he has found, as in, how serious is it? He may then have to give evidence to the hearing based on what his report says. He shouldn't be recommending any action or outcome, just sticking to the facts - Bob didn't ensure that all employees using the beggle-grabbing machine had been appropriately trained, leading to some staff using it who hadn't been trained, and this could have led to a serious accident due to inadequte training. It is then up to the hearing to decide whether that is a serious disciplinary matter or not.

If he is being asked to conduct the whole invetsigation that is a much more complex job and not one that someone without training or support should do - in which case he needs to explain this to his manager, and they need to address theis.

zzzLazyDaisy

lizzywig wrote: »

zzzLazyDaisy - I believe DH is being asked to provide evidence based on his findings, he's had to take photos, log everything etc but I think this is the problem. He doesn't really know what he's supposed to be doing and neither does the manager, who incidentally is not DH's manager, just person B's manager. I can't imagine though that he would be asked to make a decision but I know he has been asked for his opinion only of the gravity of the situation.

Okay. Well, if that is all he has been asked to do, and provided that he has the expertise to be able to do it, that is much more straight forward. In my view, HR should still be guiding him on the format of the report and how to present it, if he asks for their assistance. If they are refusing even this amount of help, then he should simply write a report and state the facts - that is to say these are the issues, these are the rules/regulations/procedures that have been broken or not complied with, this is why it is serious. He should just stick to the facts. He should not give opinions or make recommendations.

He certainly should not be discussing the case with the manager holding the dismissal, and he absolutely should not be expressing any opinion about what should happen to the employee. That is not his job.

He may be asked further questions about his report and what happened by the person conducting the investigation and/or the disciplinary hearing, and he should simply answer honestly and truthfully, as far as those questions fall within his expertise.

As SarEl has said, if OH is being asked to conduct the investigation including taking statements from other employees that is a whole different ball game, but I suspect from what you have said, that he is being asked to provide an 'expert report' on the facts that lie within his own expertise.

ohreally

zzzLazyDaisy wrote: »

He certainly should not be discussing the case with the manager holding the dismissal

Freudian slip?

zzzLazyDaisy

ohreally wrote: »

Freudian slip?

Not at all, that is exactly what I meant.

If his role is to provide an expert report, he should do just that.
If he is asked to explain or elaborate on something in his report, that's fine.

What he absolutely should not be doing is to discuss the case against the employee with the manager who will be holding the dismissal nor should he get involved in discussions about whether the employee should be dismissed, etc. That is not his job.

BlueAngelCV

zzzLazyDaisy wrote: »

Not at all, that is exactly what I meant.

If his role is to provide an expert report, he should do just that.
If he is asked to explain or elaborate on something in his report, that's fine.

What he absolutely should not be doing is to discuss the case against the employee with the manager who will be holding the dismissal nor should he get involved in discussions about whether the employee should be dismissed, etc. That is not his job.

Freudian slip again! I think the manager is holding a disciplinary not a dismissal!

getmore4less

If these issues are serious and I would think life threatening is serious.

I would be asking why these issues have not been uncovered before.

Are there issue with the process and procedures that allowed these issues not to come to light

If the process and procedures are OK why did the management not spot the problems sooner.

If they only spotted issue one why not the others that OH found

there is clearly a bigger problem than one employee.

perhap all the places need a full audit.

Any H&S people in the company that need to get involved.

Should these issues be notified to the authorities?