Carrying out a disciplinary when it's not your job

lizzywig

I have a query on behalf of my husband, I shan't give details of company name etc due to the nature of the question, they're not well known, it's just in case anyone came across this.

He works for a national company who have around 35 branches across the country. Each of the 35 branches has one person doing a particular job, this type of person is class B. In addition to this they have selected 7 of the class B people to become class A people. Class A people are like mentors, they train new class B people and class B assistants, they arrange cover if people are going to be on holiday and they cover if people are off sick, they also do the budgets for all of the branches in their remit (my husband has 8), they have to deal with any stock issues and there are all other sorts of things but if I went into detail it would make it very easy for his business to identify this. Class A and B have no difference in salary despite the additional responsibilities but that's not what I am here to ask - he has already put in for a pay rise request.

Recently one of the Class B people at one of the branches under his remit has been suspended for reason 1. Subseuqently by husband has had to cover this persons role (in addition to his own) and since covering reasons 2, 3, 4 and 5 have come to light. He has been asked by one of the Directors to carry out the disciplinary with class b persons manager. This is because the manager doesn't know how to do the job and my husband does and can identify why these issues are so bad. However my husband has never done a disciplinary before, he's not a manager and has had no training in this area. I told him to seek advice from HR on how to proceed and what sort of questions should be asked etc, how to record things and what the company policy is etc. HR told him, quote "we cannot get involved or advise at this level in case person class b makes an appeal. In this instance we (along with the director) would be the people hearing the appeal so cannot be seen as getting involved in the first instance".

I think this is a load of tosh. Person B manager doesn't know how to proceed and neither does my husband but they know that they need to get rid of this person as some of the issues are life threatening. However HR won't advise and so they could end up doing it all wrong. Does anyone know how to proceed with a disclipinary and the types of things they should be doing/saying/asking? Some companies are beyond belief...

SarEl

Yes we do - but we shouldn't be telling you! Seriously.

He needs to go back to the manager and say that he he happy to assist but he has no knowledge of the disciplinary process or experience of disciplinaries, and HR say they will not advise him on how to conduct the process (which is actually their job!). If he were to follow the advice of a bunch of strangers on a website - even if all of that advice was 100% correct and accurate (and if it isn't, how would he know which is and which isn't), that isn't a guarantee that he has done things the way the company would do things. The legal responsibility for getting this right is the employers, and it would be yhem, not us, who land in court if it isn't done right.

jonnyd281

First time I had to carry out a disciplinary on someone, I spoke to my line managers and our HR discipline cell, they were more than happy to assist me, talking through the procedures with me so I did everything by the book.

ohreally

The disciplinary hearing would normally be conducted by the line manager with perhaps an hr adviser sitting in for advice/ guidance and note taking.

For senior hr to be involved at this stage may well contaminate the process and would surely be an open goal at appeal stage. I wouldn't be surprised if this ends up falling due to procedural error.

As sarEl has pointed out, an internet forum is not the way forward.

littleboo

It's HR's role to guide and advise, ensuring that company policy is followed, particularly when it could result in dismissal and a tribunal. Their stance is ridiculous, one person providing that support does not exclude the rest of the HR department from hearing an appeal.

zzzLazyDaisy

OP, can you just clarify - is your OH being asked to sit in / assist at the disciplinary interview because he knows the job and can explain what went wrong and why it is serious? Or is he being asked to conduct the interview and make the decision?

It is an important distinction from his point of view, because if the employee is dismissed, and a tribunal hearing results, it will be the person who made the decision to dismiss who will have to give evidence and explain how he conducted the procedure and why/how he came to that decision.

It is ridiculous to expect someone to conduct a disciplinary hearing with no training or understanding of what is required. He should go back to HR and make it clear that he needs guidance on what procedures to follow and how to conduct the interview.

EDIT: As others have said, even though some of us know how to conduct disciplinary hearings, that wouldn't help your OH. The employer has a duty to follow it's own disciplinary procedure, so even if your OH followed generally accepted procedures, this could still be deemed unfair if he had failed to comply with some step that is set down in the company's own procedures.

Nicki

If I were the person facing the disciplinary, I would be very upset, to say the least, if I knew that one of the panel had decided in advance that I was guilty of the offences alleged, and that the outcome was definitely going to be dismissal, and that none of the panel intended to follow legal procedures, and in fact didn't even know what they were!

OP, I would suggest your OP treats this employee the way he would like to be treated if he were himself facing disciplinary action, and gets HR to explain the process to him, and goes into the hearing with an open mind as to the outcome, and definitely does not collude with the senior member of staff beforehand to rig the outcome

DVardysShadow

The whole thing is a Pig's ear. Lizzywig, it seems to me that having uncovered reasons 2, 3, 4 & 5 your OH should be either conducting the investigation phase or putting the claims to an investigation. As for HR refusing to get involved, it looks like your OH is being set up as the fall guy for when the disciplinary process fails to produce the desired outcome [not that disciplinary processes should ahve a desired outcome]. HR should at the very minimum be advising on process.

acs_2

lizzywig wrote: »

I have a query on behalf of my husband, I shan't give details of company name etc due to the nature of the question, they're not well known, it's just in case anyone came across this.

He works for a national company who have around 35 branches across the country. Each of the 35 branches has one person doing a particular job, this type of person is class B. In addition to this they have selected 7 of the class B people to become class A people. Class A people are like mentors, they train new class B people and class B assistants, they arrange cover if people are going to be on holiday and they cover if people are off sick, they also do the budgets for all of the branches in their remit (my husband has 8), they have to deal with any stock issues and there are all other sorts of things but if I went into detail it would make it very easy for his business to identify this. Class A and B have no difference in salary despite the additional responsibilities but that's not what I am here to ask - he has already put in for a pay rise request.

Recently one of the Class B people at one of the branches under his remit has been suspended for reason 1. Subseuqently by husband has had to cover this persons role (in addition to his own) and since covering reasons 2, 3, 4 and 5 have come to light. He has been asked by one of the Directors to carry out the disciplinary with class b persons manager. This is because the manager doesn't know how to do the job and my husband does and can identify why these issues are so bad. However my husband has never done a disciplinary before, he's not a manager and has had no training in this area. I told him to seek advice from HR on how to proceed and what sort of questions should be asked etc, how to record things and what the company policy is etc. HR told him, quote "we cannot get involved or advise at this level in case person class b makes an appeal. In this instance we (along with the director) would be the people hearing the appeal so cannot be seen as getting involved in the first instance".

I think this is a load of tosh. Person B manager doesn't know how to proceed and neither does my husband but they know that they need to get rid of this person as some of the issues are life threatening. However HR won't advise and so they could end up doing it all wrong. Does anyone know how to proceed with a disclipinary and the types of things they should be doing/saying/asking? Some companies are beyond belief...

If your husband goes ahead an conducts the disciplinary I would expect a mountain of issues to arise. On the grounds of his level of experience, i would suggest he refuses to conduct the disciplinary because either way, S**t roles down hill and whatever the outcome, somewhere along the line, the buck will stop with him and he will end up in a very difficult position, which may potentially effect his job with the company... Ive seen it happen first hand as Ive acted as an advocate in the past for someone.

Uncertain

lizzywig wrote: »

I have a query on behalf of my husband, I shan't give details of company name etc due to the nature of the question, they're not well known, it's just in case anyone came across this.

He works for a national company who have around 35 branches across the country. Each of the 35 branches has one person doing a particular job, this type of person is class B. In addition to this they have selected 7 of the class B people to become class A people. Class A people are like mentors, they train new class B people and class B assistants, they arrange cover if people are going to be on holiday and they cover if people are off sick, they also do the budgets for all of the branches in their remit (my husband has 8), they have to deal with any stock issues and there are all other sorts of things but if I went into detail it would make it very easy for his business to identify this. Class A and B have no difference in salary despite the additional responsibilities but that's not what I am here to ask - he has already put in for a pay rise request.

Recently one of the Class B people at one of the branches under his remit has been suspended for reason 1. Subseuqently by husband has had to cover this persons role (in addition to his own) and since covering reasons 2, 3, 4 and 5 have come to light. He has been asked by one of the Directors to carry out the disciplinary with class b persons manager. This is because the manager doesn't know how to do the job and my husband does and can identify why these issues are so bad. However my husband has never done a disciplinary before, he's not a manager and has had no training in this area. I told him to seek advice from HR on how to proceed and what sort of questions should be asked etc, how to record things and what the company policy is etc. HR told him, quote "we cannot get involved or advise at this level in case person class b makes an appeal. In this instance we (along with the director) would be the people hearing the appeal so cannot be seen as getting involved in the first instance".

I think this is a load of tosh. Person B manager doesn't know how to proceed and neither does my husband but they know that they need to get rid of this person as some of the issues are life threatening. However HR won't advise and so they could end up doing it all wrong. Does anyone know how to proceed with a disclipinary and the types of things they should be doing/saying/asking? Some companies are beyond belief...

I've quoted the whole post so that is doesn't suddenly disappear!

So, you are looking for advice on behalf of your husband as to how he should conduct a disciplinary hearing when he has already decided on the outcome!

Behaviour like that should, in my view, be made a criminal offence!

I sincerely hope somebody does recognise the company from your post and gives a copy to the individual that is about to be a victim of the kangaroo court your husband is conspiring to conduct.

Hopefully it will backfire on your OH and his co conspirators and they will lose their jobs.

Outrageous!

ohreally

lizzywig wrote: »

they know that they need to get rid of this person as some of the issues are life threatening.

Hasn't training been considered with an improvement plan and mentoring if necessary?

Its rather poor to be sacking their way out of trouble, especially if other options may be available and the decision has already been taken to dismiss.