Greece...

kabayiri

Thrugelmir wrote: »

Perhaps the design of the Eurozone was never fit for purpose. Half baked........ as was politically driven.

Many designs are merely prototypes.

They look great in the lab; on paper; or on a computer screen.

However, in the real world sometimes they don't live up to expectations.

EU 2.0 anyone?

CLAPTON

wotsthat wrote: »

If the EU created a problem why aren't all member states in the same boat as Greece? Perhaps different sovereign members took different decisions?

There's plenty of blame to share but perspective seems to be going out of fashion these days.

many aren't sovergn states as they can't devalve their currecny nor can they determine their own interest rates nor can they determine tariff or non tariff rules for trade with about 160 countries in the world or even that tax on tampons.

Thrugelmir

kabayiri wrote: »

EU 2.0 anyone?

Has been mooted as a potential answer.

The_Last_Username

mwpt wrote: »

Except I'm not trying to deny that. It seems to be you who thinks the EU must solve this problem, so let's get a straight answer. What exactly do you think the EU should do differently?

Using the EU's own rules Greece should not have been allowed to join the EU.

First and foremost, should Greece have been allowed to join the euro? It was not allowed to join when the euro was established in 1999 for failing to meet the economic and fiscal criteria for membership. It subsequently joined 2 years later when its black economy was estimated at some 20%, but subsequent revisions of its budgetary figures prove that it never actually made the grade.

https://www.masecoprivatewealth.com/iq/issue11/economics.php

“Greece should never have been allowed to join the eurozone in the first place, simply because they didn’t fit the criteria the EU had established long ago,”

http://www.shropshirestar.com/news/2015/07/07/greece-should-not-have-joined-euro-says-former-shropshire-mp/

Oh look, even Angela Merkel said as much:

the German Chancellor said the debt-strapped country should have never been allowed to join the euro.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/angela-merkel-says-greece-should-never-have-been-allowed-to-join-the-euro-8788435.html

There is much written about the EU's involvement in Greece's downfall.
Regardless of your opinions however you cannot deny that the EU has a responsibility to solve the Greek problem since this problem is happening during membership of the EU.

What do I think the EU should do?
Well if you would like to arrange payment to myself of similar sums that senior EU politicos receive to (supposedly) solve problems such as this, I would be pleased to give the matter serious consideration.
Which sadly seems to be just about as much as these EU politicos actually do, and no more.

mwpt

The_Last_Username wrote: »

There is much written about the EU's involvement in Greece's downfall.
Regardless of your opinions however you cannot deny that the EU has a responsibility to solve the Greek problem since this problem is happening during membership of the EU.

I accept that on balance of probability, since I can't know the actual facts behind all the figures, Greece should not have been allowed to join. Responsibility for that lies mostly with the EU but a lot with Greece for fudging the figures (presuming they did).

However, I don't think it is up to the EU to solve every member nations problems. Why should I think that?

What do I think the EU should do?
Well if you would like to arrange payment to myself of similar sums that senior EU politicos receive to (supposedly) solve problems such as this, I would be pleased to give the matter serious consideration.
Which sadly seems to be just about as much as these EU politicos actually do, and no more.

So, you're quite prepared to say the EU is at fault for Greece's current problems, implying they have done the wrong thing by bailing them out and imposing conditions on the bailout (note that the IMF acts in the same manner), but you don't want to back up your argument by saying what should have happened instead.

The_Last_Username

mwpt wrote: »

So, you're quite prepared to say the EU is at fault for Greece's current problems, implying they have done the wrong thing by bailing them out and imposing conditions on the bailout (note that the IMF acts in the same manner), but you don't want to back up your argument by saying what should have happened instead.

I realise that you would love me to ponificate - however I also know by now that the main reason for your requesting such actions is so that you may deride and scorn.
As such I will decline.
I therefore suggest you hunt elsewhere.

A_Medium_Size_Jock

mwpt wrote: »

I accept that on balance of probability, since I can't know the actual facts behind all the figures, Greece should not have been allowed to join. Responsibility for that lies mostly with the EU but a lot with Greece for fudging the figures (presuming they did).

However, I don't think it is up to the EU to solve every member nations problems. Why should I think that?



So, you're quite prepared to say the EU is at fault for Greece's current problems, implying they have done the wrong thing by bailing them out and imposing conditions on the bailout (note that the IMF acts in the same manner), but you don't want to back up your argument by saying what should have happened instead.

You on the other hand seem to think it perfectly acceptable for the EU to police the Eurozone and beyond by for example fining Apple for taxes whilst tax has been paid in a EU country?
Or to overule the wishes of member countries - just for one example, like Hungary and Visegrad nations accepting immigrants or face being fined by the EU?

But the EU should not police member countries and prevent them becoming so indebted that they face bankruptcy?
Why then are the EU so keen to police member countries' proposed budgets?
Portugal and Italy to name just two.

You really can't have it both ways.

mwpt

The_Last_Username wrote: »

I realise that you would love me to ponificate - however I also know by now that the main reason for your requesting such actions is so that you may deride and scorn.
As such I will decline.
I therefore suggest you hunt elsewhere.

In my opinion, you don't have an answer but that is ok with you because your objective is to find fault with the EU first and foremost and then fit the facts into that objective later.

CLAPTON

mwpt wrote: »

In my opinion, you don't have an answer but that is ok with you because your objective is to find fault with the EU first and foremost and then fit the facts into that objective later.

so you can write that about ALL and EVERY problem in the EU and so be in total denial for ever : see no evil hear no evil

mwpt

CLAPTON wrote: »

so you can write that about ALL and EVERY problem in the EU and so be in total denial for ever : see no evil hear no evil

We feel quite similarly about the opposite sides posts. I feel that there are those here who will find the EU at fault in every case and look to fit the facts to this view.

My opinion is that Greece is mostly to blame for Greece's problems but the EU should take some blame too. I also don't think it is up to the EU, nor is it even possible, to solve every constituent countries economic problems. The stability mechanism is there for emergencies, so by definition it's going to be a rough ride when it is used.

I keep asking what the EU should be doing differently for Greece _right now_? Should they ask the tax payers of every other country to give the Greeks a free lunch, write off the debts and let the Greeks continue to do what they previously did?