Bathroom dispute: legal questions

Leif

As some of you know I am about to pursue some bathroom fitters through the small claims court, to get back a large amount of money. They bodged a bathroom refit as described elsewhere (I won't link to it as I have had huge amounts of very useful information already). I am confident of a positive outcome, as I have letters from them in which they make statements which conflict with themselves, and with 3 independent surveys I commissioned.

Anyway, I am preparing the case, and I would appreciate help with how best to present the information:

1. I have written a 4 page summary with dates, and brief details, including references to letters and independent surveys, an adhesive datasheet, an adhesive packet, A4 photographs, and online information.
2. How is it best to label the associated documents? Is it okay to for example write in red pen "Document 4" on the first page? Is it okay to write in indelible ink "Photograph 3" on the back of the third photo?
3. I have some ceramic tiles that I kep as evidence as they show very poor wall contact e.g. 20%. Should I photograph these and attach photos, or simply mention them, and then carry them into court?
4. I have an adhesive packet with relevant information on it e.g. "Contains cement". Should I photograph the relevant information, or just mention it and carry the packet into court?

Other helpful comments are welcome. Many thanks.



Incidentally, I am impressed with how helpful Topps Tiles have been. I'm not trying to advertise for them, but they have been very helpful in providing datasheets, and other information. Obviously they are one of the 'good guys'.

keystone

If its allocated to the small claims track (>£5k claim) then you will sit in a room round a table with the District Judge and the defendant. You won't actually sit in court. Its very informal actually but you do need to have your case prepared. As regards advice I know what I would do but I'm not going to say because any such advice from anyone on an internet forum could not and should not be relied on. You really should gather all your papers together and invest £50 or whatever on a visit to your solicitor and get his take on it.

Very frequently you'll get a load of bluster from the defendant (well you've seen that already) until the Court papers actually land on their doormat. Then they cave in quickly and pay when they see that you are serious particularly if they know they don't have much of a foot to stand on. Don't forget to claim a resonable administration cost and ask your sol if you can also claim statutory interest on the claimed amount.

Note that if the defendant doesn't turn up you'll get judgement in your favour without having to present anything almost automatically.

Sorry if thats not the answer you were looking for but as I write you've had 60 viewings of the thread and no replies yet so peeps aren't going to stick their necks out - thats in case we get it wrong for you BTW.

Cheers

melb

there used to be a Forum called Just Claim or something along those lines which i found helpful when we were in court twice. I sought advice from citizens advice and was given a free appointment with a solicitor who gave good advice. When we were dragged to court on a boundary issue we used a local solicitor on an adhoc basis paying I think £47 per hour session which was invaluable in terms of making sure we were on the right track. At least in your case there won't be any complicated law coming into play if it's a builder dispute. the only thing I would say if you haven't already done so is to give the other party one last opportunity to settle before you issue court proceedings so that you seem reasonable and in any further dealings with them write your letters for the eyes of the Judge should it come to court. i will have a read of your other posts as i have not seen them as yet. Good luck. I'm not sure you can claim for your admin costs in the small claims court as no costs are usually allocated. As the poster above has said it's all a bit of a minefield and our builder appeared with his Barrister in the small claims court (and still lost ha ha) who tried to trip us with lies and more lies which thankfully the judge saw through

melb

I do remember your posts now Lief and left a comment actually about the person who said it was your fault for not telling them what to do. It looks horrendous and reminds me of our shower-room tiling debacle where the tiles were sticking out so much my OH could get half the length of his fingers behind. the tradesman's answer was "it's cos your walls are !!!!ed!" - yes they aren't all at 90 degree angles because the house is over 100 years old but that's what we thought the plastering was for!

Leif

Thank you to both of you.

keystone wrote: »

Sorry if thats not the answer you were looking for but as I write you've had 60 viewings of the thread and no replies yet so peeps aren't going to stick their necks out - thats in case we get it wrong for you BTW.

Actually your answer is very informative, and in many respects what I want to hear. I like the idea that the judge will allow both parties to present evidence and speak without the intimidation of a court setting. So a clear and honest summary of the dispute is I think what he would want to read, with all relevant documents. I will take original documents along just in case, as well as photocopies.

As an aside, today I checked two letters from the rogues, one before they received my surveys, one after. In the second letter they have provided different information from the first one, no doubt changing their minds after they read the surveys. That will not endear them to the judge. And it will make it harder for them to win a "he said, we said" argument.

We shall see.

Leif

melb wrote: »

I'm not sure you can claim for your admin costs in the small claims court as no costs are usually allocated. As the poster above has said it's all a bit of a minefield and our builder appeared with his Barrister in the small claims court (and still lost ha ha) who tried to trip us with lies and more lies which thankfully the judge saw through

I will claim for rental costs between throwing them out, and getting the bathroom refitted (7 weeks), which I think is allowed. I think this will be straightforward, as I have a lot of evidence on my side. And I believe I can show they they have changed their story as and when I confronted them with evidence.

iamcornholio

What you need to do is prepare three "bundles" one for you, one for the builder and one for the court. You need to include everything that you want to refer to as evidence. Photos will do, but a small tile section taken to court wont do any harm if you feel it is necessary

Use dividers, or post-it tabs to divide everything and label each thing as L1, L2, L3 etc

Prepare a statement - don't waffle, stick to facts and events with dates etc, and then in this refer to the other documents ... ie "The tiles fell off on 09/10/11 - see photo L4. The tiles were fixed with adhesive - see L5 for the instructions"

Use numbered paragraphs for your statement, keep them short and relevant to one point at a time, and use 1.5 or double-spaced sentences to make it all easy to read

A well prepared bundle, easy to read and reference will go a long way in helping the judge and he will appreciate it

Leif

iamcornholio wrote: »

What you need to do is prepare three "bundles" one for you, one for the builder and one for the court. You need to include everything that you want to refer to as evidence. Photos will do, but a small tile section taken to court wont do any harm if you feel it is necessary

Use dividers, or post-it tabs to divide everything and label each thing as L1, L2, L3 etc

Prepare a statement - don't waffle, stick to facts and events with dates etc, and then in this refer to the other documents ... ie "The tiles fell off on 09/10/11 - see photo L4. The tiles were fixed with adhesive - see L5 for the instructions"

Use numbered paragraphs for your statement, keep them short and relevant to one point at a time, and use 1.5 or double-spaced sentences to make it all easy to read

A well prepared bundle, easy to read and reference will go a long way in helping the judge and he will appreciate it

Sounds like I am on the right track. I prepared two bundles as I assumed I kept one, and one went to the court, but I will do a third just in case.

It will not be a small tile section, but some large tiles, the reason being that direct evidence of potentially dangerous work is essential i.e. they can see that very little adhesive was in contact with the wall.

My only worry is that I did not agree to them making 'repairs' (they did waflle about making 'adjustments') but I contend that they did not admit any fault, and continually lied, hence showed themselves to be untrustworthy and/or incompetent.

Isn't life fun, sort of.

iamcornholio

You will need to give copies of all your evidence and statement to the other side before the hearing (date will be notified to you by the court), and that is the third copy. The other side do likewise

Taking a big tile to show "potentially dangerous" work is going to be your subjective opinion. It may well be that the smallest spot of adhesive can hold the tile - despite whatever you personally think. That is why you need expert report/comment to say that the tile was not in fact properly fixed. The builder could say, "Well I always do that along with every other tiler (custom and practice) and have never had any complaints". It is your job to prove his neglect, so you need to provide evidence to prove that the tiles were not fixed properly

You need to keep subjective opinion to a minimum, as the Judge will want to see factual evidence of the builders neglect or fault, and a tile with a bit of adhesive may not prove fault, so a photo may do the same job. In any case the Judge would normally read all the documents before the hearing and will probably have an opinion either way, which he will clarify via a few questions at the hearing - so photos in the report would be more preferable

Also, IMO, a favourable expert report would always carry more weight with a judge, and so taking tiles to court may not be necessary

Leif

iamcornholio wrote: »

You will need to give copies of all your evidence and statement to the other side before the hearing (date will be notified to you by the court), and that is the third copy. The other side do likewise

Taking a big tile to show "potentially dangerous" work is going to be your subjective opinion. It may well be that the smallest spot of adhesive can hold the tile - despite whatever you personally think. That is why you need expert report/comment to say that the tile was not in fact properly fixed. The builder could say, "Well I always do that along with every other tiler (custom and practice) and have never had any complaints". It is your job to prove his neglect, so you need to provide evidence to prove that the tiles were not fixed properly

You need to keep subjective opinion to a minimum, as the Judge will want to see factual evidence of the builders neglect or fault, and a tile with a bit of adhesive may not prove fault, so a photo may do the same job. In any case the Judge would normally read all the documents before the hearing and will probably have an opinion either way, which he will clarify via a few questions at the hearing - so photos in the report would be more preferable

Also, IMO, a favourable expert report would always carry more weight with a judge, and so taking tiles to court may not be necessary

I have three reports by trades who say the tiling is poor with poor adhesion. They say tiles almost fell off. One report states that there is a British Standard for the amount of area that should be in contact with the wall. The tile will be evidence.

The builder could rubbish a report by a trade, which is why I got as many as I could i.e. 3. I will provide evidence that one of the adhesives they used contains cement, that they did not prime walls as claimed, and that cement adhesive on gypsum plaster will lead to tiles falling off (I reference a Topps datasheet, the adhesive bag, a report, and online documents).

He can always rubbish everything I cite, but his changing his story after two months, making false claims, and 3 independent reports will weigh against him. And the high quality photographs I have show his poor work.

I'm afraid some of this has to be subjective as they make claims to be skilled bathroom designers, and cosmetically the work stinks. Subjective opinion is part of the issue here.