What is the 4kW limit for FIT?

jamesingram

As you say still new industry , but really its the installers and sales guys that have missed out on a trick here, as they should be the ones informing the clients . I only relised my error in calculating system sizes via discussion on the navitron forum, I'm not sure, but i believe most installers register "total panel wattage" as system size (thinking this to be DNC) and many in the various FIT supplier department staff think this is also the case, but the DNC definition seem clearly to say max AC output of the inverter.
Re. your E/W idea , quick look at the sma design tool shows approx. 2.25-2.5kW per mppt DC max as best for the SMA 4000TL though other makes and brands may be different . Installer posting on the navitron forum have definately installed systems like this and register DNC < 4KW (as you mentioned using 16A limited inverters also to make the installation process simpler)
So the real problem for clients is finding an installer that will register thier systems as I and other believe it should be.

grahamc2003

jamesingram wrote: »

So the real problem for clients is finding an installer that will register thier systems as I and other believe it should be.

And that may be a problem because the installers (or at least the MCS approvers who sign the system off) will only do what they have been told to do in their mcs course.

Now, imv, it's likely that they or even the training providers don't understand the technicality being discussed, and I would suspect (but may be wrong of course) that they are trained just to fill in the box as the sum of the nominal max powers of each panel, rather than the inverter output.
If this were not the case, I would have expected the rar companies to have implemented what has been suggested already, being adept at maximising their own profits.

So even if technically allowable, I expect the mcs people to show no initiative (understandably), and just follow the procedures as documented for them (as they are obliged to do, imo).

jamesingram

Graham , I agree . Still new stuff to most of us , so easier to follow the herd . At little bit of free thinking within the rules will allow those interested to maximise energy returns from the kit they install
If FITs didn't exist it would be standard practice , but then we'd still be paying £8k/kW instead of £2k ish+/kW

jamesingram

As to the training side , the C&G course on PV I did didn't mention this area at all , mainly dealt with familarisation with kit and installation, testing etc.

grahamc2003

jamesingram wrote: »

If FITs didn't exist it would be standard practice , but then we'd still be paying £8k/kW instead of £2k ish+/kW

For the systems installed up to now, the installation price may have dropped, but the overall obligation is something like £15k/KW isn't it?

In any case, the price would have dropped in the same manner whether or not the UK implemented a fit scheme imo.

jamesingram

I was only thinking of install price.
Yes kit price might have fallen without UK FITs, but only due to incentive schemes in other countrys, to push the product forward into the consumers radar , I think the creation of a UK supplier network as a result of FITs has helped.
Also labour price have and will drop , as it moves from a specialist niche product to something your local roofer/electrician can do , much like fitting a gas boiler etc.

zeupater

jamesingram wrote: »

.... Also labour price have and will drop , as it moves from a specialist niche product to something your local roofer/electrician can do , much like fitting a gas boiler etc.

Hi

Although the MCS/FiT 'cartel' requirement will undoubtably keep the prices much higher than they need to be, just as is the case in the 'cartel' controlled gas boiler market raised above ... :D

Z

jamesingram

Yes , but should you wish, you can diy fit both outside these reg. schemes perfectly legally on your own home.
In the case of PV you wont get any FITs money though

zeupater

jamesingram wrote: »

Yes , but should you wish, you can fit both outside these reg. schemes perfectly legally on your own home.
In the case of PV you wont get any FITs money though

Exactly (however, the DIY option proposed does need caveats and qualification ) ..... so it's not currently the case that pv is/will move 'from a specialist niche product to something your local roofer/electrician can do' because, as you correctly point out, it's not really a specialist niche product anyway.

When looking around I was appauled by the level of technical understanding in the industry from a mix of small concerns to the largest installers, most of which really didn't have a clue when pressed with a few technical questions, there's probably a good history of that on this or other fora. The only reason that the MCS 'cartel' became a requirement for FiT approval was that there was a requirement for a body to protect the comsumer from 'sharp' operating practices which were utilised by many of the earlier solar thermal companies and previously by industries such as replacement windows ... almost everyone knows what the reference 'he's a double glazing salesman' means ... however, despite this there is still evidence that the sharp practices exist .... £270+ saving on an electricity bill from a 3.3kWp system sound feasible? - then why doesn't the industry and it's bodies do something to protect both their own cozy arrangement and their collective customer base ?

With installed prices falling below £2/Wp we start to get into the area where a 'net-metering' solution without FiTs becomes plausible and smart-meters could quite easily be used to limit/flag export capability to the nominal 16A required by the DNO, so then what becomes of the MCS scheme if not to be a mere protective 'cartel' .....

Z

jamesingram

I was thinking "specialist niche product" in the eyes of the consumer, in its high installation cost and general knowledge of the product to potential installers on mass. This has already changed as a result of FITs
As far as i'm aware one supposed purpose of FITs was to create a UK PV industry of suppliers and installers , thus driving down the install price.
Its been reasonably successful at that, the problem is how its been managed by DECC etc. , ie the the FIT reduction, too much at one time, to late, short notice of change etc.,. Thus creating confusion , destroying confidence and possibly undoing it's previous gain.

Yes reg. bodies are alway a bit of a problem , nice idea , no good in practice if they're toothless tigers , creating red tape , increasing costs. Potentially ending up just bottom feeders . But the gov. wouldn't stand over a big selective industry subsidising activity without some veneer of controls and standards.
So , yes , not what you'd hope , but perhaps necessary all the same.
As to the future , yes , once install price drops enough then the FIT will no longer be necessary to stimulate the market.
To me they got it round the wrong way anyway , subsides export, buy back price match, with suppliers charges, dont subside total generation, if you're interested in reducing energy use and resultant environmental negatives through onsite mircogeneration.
Very roughly looking at the current install cost , if you fit a system in a location where all generated energy is used at point of generation and imagine the system explodes in 25 years into dust , energy generated works out less than 12p kWh for a 4kWP south facing system, without any funding .
Ok lots of future/current value of money stuff not covered , but hay , I pretty sure energy prices will only one way , thats up.