MSE News: Legal battle launched over solar subsidy cuts

albyota

The_Green_Hornet wrote: »

Just to add my own add my own two penneth to the debate, I personally would scrap all generation and consumption subsidies and use the money to upgrade the energy efficiency of our housing stock.

errr, that is already being subsidised masively in the same way, all the energy companies, DIY sheds, offering free or discount price cavity wall and roof insulation fitted by the Mark group, Miller patterson, A&M insulation etc... boiler scrappage scheme, warm front, pensioners winter payment etc... and our future power stations are being heavily subsidised, its just that nobody sees that connection.

Martyn1981

Small addendum to post 168 regarding long term subsidy free install.

Forgot to point out that obviously whilst prices may bottom out, the idea would still benefit from normal economics through energy price inflation. As solar is free, no additional costs, but if in 5 years import costs 15p, then applying 40 years of just 2% inflation compounded, this reaches 30p a unit. However, how you are supposed to think 40 years ahead beats even me!

Just scribbling future thoughts, no real importance.

Mart.

Cardew

albyota wrote: »

and our future power stations are being heavily subsidised, its just that nobody sees that connection.

Nuclear power stations will be subsidised. The gas and oil industry that supply power sations pay huge amounts of Tax.

Coal power stations wouldn't require subsidy, but there is an Environmental backlash against them - despite China opening one a week, with India also opening loads.

However surely the difference between subsidy for, say, Nuclear is that the subsidy is paid by the Taxpayer with a view to getting a cheaper and reliable supply of electricity.

The subsidy for solar is paid by electricity customers and(largely) goes directly to less than 1% of the population and venture capitalists funding Rent a Roof companies.

There is no pretence that solar subsidies do other than make people a profit. They, in theory, don't even have to export a kWh of the electricty they are paid for.

Martyn1981

But Cardew these all end up in the same place.

Oil and gas suppliers are private companies, any taxes they pay, get added onto the product cost, which then gets reflected in householders bills.

Subsidies to nuclear are paid from general taxation, which in turn is paid by householders.

FITs is the most transparent as it is part of the green tariff, and shows up directly on householders bills.

However you measure it, any and all subsidies are paid by the householder in the end.

Yes nuclear provides an extremely important role with relaibale and consistent generation, but the subsidies are enormous and will never be removed due to the high cost of generation. Whereas with PV, the subsidies are already being reduced and can lead to the larger role out of subsidy free generation.

With regard to PV and FITs, the generation tariff of 43p / 21p is not a payment for exported energy, that is 3.1p, it is a subsidy to help investors recoup infrastructure costs. But yes, it is too high, but has a scheduled reduction and removal, which has been brought forward significantly as a result of faster than expected movements in install costs.

With regard to coal, like it or hate it, it's pretty much off the table now due to CO2 commitments, nothing we can do about that. Carbon capture and storage (CCS) costs also makes coal uncompetitive with on-shore wind.

Mart.

HalloweenJack

solar generation though is massively smaller than nuclear - by orders of magnitude - in fact looking at all forms of renewables , solar is bringing up the rear.....


so its easier to lower the subsidy when compared to biomass or wind , the output is tiny;

and then as cardrew says , the on going costs of thousands of scaffolding/ inverters etc.

Cardew

Martyn1981 wrote: »

However you measure it, any and all subsidies are paid by the householder in the end.

Your logic escapes me! Do you not appreciate the impact of the two different subsidies?

1. You earn £250,000 p.a and live in a company owned mansion.

2. I am a poor pensioner struggling to make ends meet, with an income not quite enough to pay tax.

A. Some of the huge amount of tax you(should!) pay goes toward the subsidy for Nuclear power enabling them to produce my my electricity cheaper.

I pay no tax.

B. The subsidy for solar is paid directly by myself in higher fuel bills; which I can't afford.

To add insult to injury, that subsidy goes to less than 1% of the population and rich investors in Rent a Roof firms(wouldn't mind betting you are one!;))

Even worse the people getting that subsidy don't even have to export any of that generated electricity - they can use it in their own houses.

Martyn1981

I understand your concerns, and I'm sure like all the other posters I too share them, but this is the world we're living in. We've run out of time.

Work backwards from 2020,
Nuclear is reducing, there will be no new plants on line for at least 10 years after any agreement is reached.
Domestic gas reserves are running down, and we are now, more than ever getting more dependent on foreign imports.
Foreign imports are causing rapid price rises.
Coal and gas are under added pressure from CO2 commitments, 2016, 2020 and so on. Implementation of CCS, if it works, will also result in large price rises.
The population of Britain and it's energy needs are still growing, mainly due to longer life expectancies - in the last 25 years life expectancy has gone up 15%, and therefore so has the population.

Everything is against us, so Plan A is to try to address this with as diverse an approach as possible.
This is leading to enormous investment in all renewables, especially wind and bio-mass. Investment in PV is much less, and subsidies are already being reduced as part of their eventual removal.

There is no Plan B. I hate this as much as you, but even with all the work we're doing now and the investment in new technologies, I still can't see how we can fill the energy shortage that is rapidly approaching.

So looking at this 'backwards' from 2020 to today, can you see why the govt wants to encourage every possible alternative and clean energy source. We've got to at least try to see what will work, before we throw any ideas away. PV is tiny at the moment, but it has great potential, and importantly the financial investment could come (subsidy free) from energy consumers, not energy suppliers, helping to provide a two pronged approach to the problem.

Yes it's all bad, so we have to make the best of it. But it certainly isn't going to be cheap.

Mart.

PS. I thought a large part of the green tariff was for nuclear.

albyota

please answer these questions.

how much does a nuclear power station cost to build?

how much does it cost to service and maintain in its lifetime?

how much will it cost to safely decommission?

who is going to pay for this?

And

When can we have one?

Cardew

Martyn1981 wrote: »

PS. I thought a large part of the green tariff was for nuclear.

You did?

Friends of the Earth’s President Erich Pica released the following statement in response:

"In the wake of the ever-expanding nuclear disaster at Fukushima and the earthquake that shuttered the North Anna reactor in Virginia, it seems incredible that the NRC had enough safety information to approve the AP 1000 reactor design. This is nothing short of a Christmas gift to the beleaguered nuclear power industry, and a lump of radioactive waste for everyone concerned about the safety and efficacy of this reactor design."

GreenPeace

End the nuclear age

Greenpeace has always fought - and will continue to fight - vigorously against nuclear power because it is an unacceptable risk to the environment and to humanity. The only solution is to halt the expansion of all nuclear power, and for the shutdown of existing plants.

HalloweenJack

i would love to know how , exactly , greenpeace or freinds of the earth expect this country to actually function with no nuclear/gas or coal stations - if they got there wish and they all turned off next week.....