FAO those with good knowledge on JSA & college courses

epitome

A 19 year old is at college 15 hours a week the college said it was a part time course.

They put a claim in for JSA and go to WFI, the PA says "you can't claim JSA, because you'd have to be on a course of less then 12 hours a week" and tells claimant to get lost. and says in LMS notes
"Claimant is on a FT course would need to be on a course of less than 12 hours....bla bla bla"

I would like to know how the PA can write that without any letter from the college which says if the course is FT or PT and what rules they are referring to that state PT = less than 12 hours??? Tom looked at guidance and guidance says:
"irrespective of the actual no. of hours in college, if the college says it is PT it is to be taken as PT, if the college says it is FT it is to be taken as FT, Unless the course is provided as part of certain schemes (they were named but Tom forgot what they were, something like adult education or connections....) in which case if the course is 16 hours or less it is to be taken as PT, and if the course is more than 16 hours it is to be taken as FT."

So the customer came back to DWP having spoken to college, who had told them to claim IS, as they were not living at home with parents...(i.e. could be estranged). Tom thought the rules for estranged students to get IS stated they had to be on a non advanced course of full time hours, this is what Tom is sure guidance used to say, but when Tom looked it up in the new format of guidance on intranet, he only found that it says "may be able to claim if in non advanced education" no longer mentions it has to be FT.

So some problems we would like your views on

Tom thought as long as the course was under 16 hours they could claim JSA (just like part time work must be under 16 hours) but guidance (above) is not exactly in line with this. Where did this PA get the idea about under 12 hours from?

Are PAs allowed to stop claimant's claims at the WFI stage? Do they have the authority to do this? Because by doing this they stop the claimant from getting a rejection letter from DWP which they can appeal. Tom thinks PAs are not allowed to stop a claim and had to let it go to the BC for a decision? Tom has seen a hundred claims stopped by PAs at the WFI stage, some for outrageous reasons.

Income Support for estranged under 20s is it full time or part time or does it not matter anymore, as long as they are on any course (non advanced)?

Thanks

baza52

cant !!!!!! or harry write on toms behalf?

baza52

epitome wrote: »

I'm Harry, I guess that makes you !!!!!!.

i guess it does. can i ask why you put the "toung out" smiley after the word !!!!!!?
Are you trying to say something here?


Someone call an ambulance, my sides are hurting with laughing so much.

Killmark

epitome wrote: »

Tom works for DWP, and told me about this...

A 19 year old is at college 15 hours a week the college said it was a part time course.

They put a claim in for JSA and go to WFI, the PA says "you can't claim JSA, because you'd have to be on a course of less then 12 hours a week" and tells claimant to get lost. and says in LMS notes
"Claimant is on a FT course would need to be on a course of less than 12 hours....bla bla bla"

Full Time Courses can be:
12hrs+ (CB/CTC)
16hrs (JSA rule of thumb, usually <15 is part time unless stated otherwise by college)
21 hrs (Council Tax student exemption)
Full Time University

epitome wrote: »

I would like to know how the PA can write that without any letter from the college which says if the course is FT or PT and what rules they are referring to that state PT = less than 12 hours??? Tom looked at guidance and guidance says:
"irrespective of the actual no. of hours in college, if the college says it is PT it is to be taken as PT, if the college says it is FT it is to be taken as FT, Unless the course is provided as part of certain schemes (they were named but Tom forgot what they were, something like adult education or connections....) in which case if the course is 16 hours or less it is to be taken as PT, and if the course is more than 16 hours it is to be taken as FT."

The PA should give the customer a form to complete, this serves as an availability check and dependent on his answers he will either treat it as straight forward (following the check boxes) or be forced to refer it to a decision maker (dependent on answers or supplied evidence).

The claim is normally made but no payments released until a decision has been made.

epitome wrote: »

So the customer came back to DWP having spoken to college, who had told them to claim IS, as they were not living at home with parents...(i.e. could be estranged). Tom thought the rules for estranged students to get IS stated they had to be on a non advanced course of full time hours, this is what Tom is sure guidance used to say, but when Tom looked it up in the new format of guidance on intranet, he only found that it says "may be able to claim if in non advanced education" no longer mentions it has to be FT.

If its full time non advanced course e.g lv3 (lv4 is hnd/hnc) as stated by the college and he is estranged he should be able to claim IS.

epitome wrote: »

So some problems we would like your views on

Tom thought as long as the course was under 16 hours they could claim JSA (just like part time work must be under 16 hours) but guidance (above) is not exactly in line with this. Where did this PA get the idea about under 12 hours from?

Are PAs allowed to stop claimant's claims at the WFI stage? Do they have the authority to do this? Because by doing this they stop the claimant from getting a rejection letter from DWP which they can appeal. Tom thinks PAs are not allowed to stop a claim and had to let it go to the BC for a decision? Tom has seen a hundred claims stopped by PAs at the WFI stage, some for outrageous reasons.

Income Support for estranged under 20s is it full time or part time or does it not matter anymore, as long as they are on any course (non advanced)?

Thanks

Generally no they shouldn't stop the claim, it would depend on what was said at the interview and/or evidence provided. I can't comment on the PA's actions as what occurred in this account is second hand.

They can decide the customer is unavailable due to FT education and inform them the claim must be closed, so its possible that was the decision by the PA.

It will only go to a DM if its not clear the customer is unavailable, as stated before it depends on what is completed on the form, but at the back there is a section showing all the options available to the adviser depending on answers.

The training/education form checks two key points:
Is the customer actively seeking employment and available, i.e do they want the tax payer to fund them why studying or would they leave the course if a suitable job came up but it clashed with their classes.

epitome

Thanks for reply.

The problem in this case is the college classes it as a PT course and the claimant was told to make that perfectly clear to the PA, and that they would be available for work 40 hours of the week around their college hours i.e. willing to work into the evenings and or weekends as required, not sure if they were willing to give up the course, but surely being available for 40 hours or more in the week is what is required.

I forgot to mention one of the claimants classmates on the same course was on JSA! they were the one who told the claimant to claim in the first place.

I don't see how they will get "IS estranged" if the college sends a letter saying it is a Part Time course? Which they will do.

The PA seems to have unilaterally decided that it is a FT course just by the fact that it is 15 hours irrespective of how the course is classified by the college.

dookar

The PA is wrong, it's a part time course

Killmark

dookar wrote: »

The PA is wrong, it's a part time course

Based on the statements made in the thread you would be correct, however it may be an availability issue, both need to be satisfied or it should be referred to a DM.

dookar

Killmark wrote: »

Based on the statements made in the thread you would be correct, however it may be an availability issue, both need to be satisfied or it should be referred to a DM.

Full time education is an availabilty issue

Killmark

epitome wrote: »

Thanks for reply.

The problem in this case is the college classes it as a PT course and the claimant was told to make that perfectly clear to the PA, and that they would be available for work 40 hours of the week around their college hours i.e. willing to work into the evenings and or weekends as required, not sure if they were willing to give up the course, but surely being available for 40 hours or more in the week is what is required.

One of the questions on the form asks how soon would you be available if you were offered a job (if I recall correctly).

If the Jobseekers Agreement says within 24hrs and the customer says more than this then it can cause the availability issue. Normally PA's tend to be flexible and adjust the JSAg to reflect this but it may depend on the JCP office own rules.

I remember about a year ago they were sending every part time students claim to a DM in my old office for availability reasons if there was the slightest doubt.

epitome wrote: »

I forgot to mention one of the claimants classmates on the same course was on JSA! they were the one who told the claimant to claim in the first place.

I don't see how they will get "IS estranged" if the college sends a letter saying it is a Part Time course? Which they will do.

As I said sounds like it was declined for availability reasons, but anyway they may be able to get IS till 20 (might be 21 but can't remember off top of my head) as they are estranged, they would need confirmation though that JSA was declined as they consider them to be studying fulltime.

Personally I would have asked to speak to the PA's line manager and disputed the PA's decision.

Killmark

dookar wrote: »

Full time education is an availabilty issue

Agreed. However as stated its a 15 hour a week course, as long as the customer is job seeking and available outside of this for at least 16hrs a week and this is reflected on the JSAg and they are prepared to give up the course if full time employment is offered then the PA should be flexible and check a learning agreement that is provided to ensure the provider considers it a part time course.

The definition of full time course is subjective (see my earlier post) but when a JSA customer is studying it is procedure to ask for a copy of the learning agreement to verify if the college considers it part time. If they do and the course is less than 16hrs a week it should be allowed and doesn't get referred to a DM as long as they can meet the obligations of their JSAg.

epitome

On a side note, if the claimant says they are available outside of their PT course times, evenings & weekends etc & available for 40 hours or more per week surely JCP cannot insist that the claimant must be willing to give up the course?